When Work Is the Last to Know: Hidden Burnout, the “Work Wall,” and How Leaders Finally Get Help with the ARriVE Framework featuring Eric Kreitz

Eric Kreitz00:00:02

Hi, everyone.

Karina Schneider00:00:03

Thank you for joining me today. I'm so grateful to have Eric Kreitz on the show this week.He brings so much experience and insight to the table that a few sentences of introduction would not do it justice. But here we go anyway.Eric's background includes 22 years of US army leadership experience, as well as extensive time spent in Army Special operations.Having overcome his own challenges with mental health, Eric has a deeply unique and meaningful insight into both sides of the reintegration experience. In our episode, Eric explains why a leader's good intentions are not enough to facilitate a smooth and successful return to work.In his present role as founder of Renovium Leadership, Eric supports leaders to handle the very human nuanced experience of supporting an employee returning to work after mental health treatment and recovery. Eric also introduces his Arrive framework, which I dare say should be on every manager's desk, as a solid playbook to guide reintegration at work.If you are in HR or in leadership listening to this, I do hope you feel guided and inspired by Eric's insights, as well as Mary Finns, who we had on the show recently and feel better equipped to enable a more graceful and dignified experience for our returning professionals. Welcome to the show, Eric. Thank you for joining us today.

Eric Kreitz00:01:27

Thanks, Karina. It's great to be here.

Karina Schneider00:01:29

You have a really interesting professional arc.So before we dive into getting to know more about your work and your experiences, can you just start with giving us kind of the highlights of where your professional career has taken you?

Eric Kreitz00:01:43

Yeah, I'll start at the. At the end first. And so I'm a leadership coach, and I'm also a reintegration coach.And so what that means is essentially, as a leadership coach, I help leaders become better versions of themselves. They help them realize their potential and help them get through things that they may be stuck on.And then as a reintegration coach, I think that we'll dive into that here during this podcast.But it's essentially just helping supervisors welcome employees back to work who've been through mental health or addiction treatment and what that entails.

Karina Schneider00:02:18

Very cool.I know, and you'll give more context to this, but at some point you were working in the army, in the special operations, I believe, and you were leading 265 people. And it was through that experience that you went through a pretty important journey, particularly with your mental health.Can you tell us a little bit about that? Whatever you're willing to share. And what got you to the point of realizing that you were in the middle of burnout?

Eric Kreitz00:02:45

Certainly, yeah. And you got it absolutely right. I was in the army at this point.I'd been in the army for about 17 years, and I was a psychological operations officer within U.S. army Special Operations Command. And I had 265 folks that I was responsible for.I was a battalion commander as a lieutenant colonel, and I was in a position where I was putting a lot of unnecessary pressure on myself. And I had a lot of fear of failure, fear of inadequacy that went unaddressed.I was dealing with alcoholism at the time, and, you know, it was one of those situations where I would always think to myself, well, you know what? I'll. I'll just. I'll get help after the next exercise, or I'll get help after, you know, the next event kind of thing.And the way I would deal with the burnout was through drinking and essentially, you know, drinking to blackout and just unhealthy isolation and things like that. And so that's how I would cope with it until that just became unsustainable. And I found myself, post suicide attempts in a psychiatric facility.Then from there, I went to treatment for alcoholism. And that's where kind of the world opened up to me.As far as there is help out there, and there are resources out there that I could have taken advantage of. In fact, I even knew about them. I'd refer some of my soldiers to those same resources. But, you know, for me, I thought, well, I'm a leader.You know, if I go and. And do any of these things, and it diminishes who I am as a leader. And so I don't.I didn't want to have that perception go out at the time that that was who I was. And now I know, of course, that it was the exact opposite of what I should have been doing. And so it was. It was at that point then.Then that I realized, you know, I. I should have done something about this years ago rather than have a decision taken out of my hands, you know, because I. I pushed my own version of how I coped with it so far.

Karina Schneider00:04:42

So, yeah, thank you for sharing that, Eric, because I know it makes it very difficult for people to open up with very difficult and very vulnerable experiences and going through kind of your own process of understanding that help is out there, that you can get help, but also what's the message you send to the people around you by deciding to get help or postponing to get help? And I think that's really powerful. And to that point, most people, leader or not, will struggle Right.To open up fairly quickly when they're going through a hard time.But especially if you're a leader, I think there's an extra layer of vulnerability to feel like you have to show that you're capable, to show like you're competent, to show that you have it all together. And it makes it very difficult for people in leadership positions to be able to open up to that.Are there other warning signs that we tend to miss out on, particularly in populations that tend to hide their struggles more than open up?

Eric Kreitz00:05:45

Yeah, I would say the biggest thing is those things that used to work to cope don't work anymore and we start going out to different things. And before it was alcohol for me, it was work.I would work 12 hour days, 14 hour days and things like that because I thought that by getting ahead and working those hours, it would make me feel better. And it worked for a time and then online shopping and just different things to help try and cope with the burnout.And the whole time I was dancing around the burnout itself and I wasn't dealing with the source of the burnout, I was dealing with the symptom of the burnout. And after a while it, you know, while I always drank throughout my career, I'd never drank to that point.And so that became the only thing that would quote, unquote, work until it didn't. And so I would say it's taking a look at those things that, you know, we used to relax or take the steam off or whatever.When those things stop working, then that's. That were the big red flag.

Karina Schneider00:06:42

What do we need to understand about the concept of coping? These are things you don't learn in school. Right. Like what becomes a coping mechanism.How do you find healthy ways to cope with difficulties going through what you've experienced? What's your perspective about the idea of coping with difficulty at present?

Eric Kreitz00:07:01

Yeah, I think with coping, for me, it was. I never identified with anybody else in my situation. I always thought, well, they're different from me.You know, they're coping in a way that wouldn't be tenable for me. And, you know, at the end of the day, I should have been learning from other people's mistakes rather than my own.But sometimes we have to make our own mistakes. That's where I am. Where I am.But now I speak and talk to people about, you know, what can we do to catch you before you have to go through a crisis of some kind in order to start addressing that burnout. Right.And so it becomes, how can we observe Other people, how can we ask for help and do some of those healthy things as opposed to just white knuckling the burnout and having it get worse?

Karina Schneider00:07:45

Yeah. I also know that you're on the board of two substance abuse prevention nonprofits.While I often talk about burnout, we cannot take away the fact that burnout can co occur, as you've already described, with other coping mechanisms or with other mental health challenges that people might go through. So what are you learning about untreated burnout and the kinds of situations and crises that these types of nonprofits have to work through?

Eric Kreitz00:08:14

Yeah.So the first nonprofit is the Centennial Council for Alcohol and Drug Awareness, and they deal with a lot of the same types of outcomes from burnout that I went through mainly with substance abuse.And what they also do is education, which is something that I know you're trying to do with your podcast as well, Karina, is how do we just make people aware of what's going on and some of those factors that lead into substance abuse so that we don't get to the point to where, you know, we're. We're in treatment or in mental health facilities and we can prevent the burnout before it happens. And then the other one is Crosspoint Inc.Here in San Antonio, Texas as well.And they do deal with a little bit broader range of the results of what I would call burnout, you know, with reintegration for homelessness and some aspect of substance abuse.It's all really, once that burnout comes to a head and the control over the burnout is no longer in our own hands and the circumstances dictate, then at that point, what happens to us because we're no longer able to handle that burnout. And those organizations try to prevent getting to that point or helping them deal with it after they do.

Karina Schneider00:09:25

I can imagine it's very fulfilling work to be able to support that. What are you noticing about how we've evolved, talking about mental health and responding to mental health needs, accessing to care?I know it's a really broad question, but being on the board of such organizations, I can imagine you have a bit of a helicopter view about how we are progressing on mental health care overall.

Eric Kreitz00:09:54

That's a great question. And just over the last couple of years, it's becoming more acceptable to talk about it.And I think that's the big thing is organizations like these two nonprofits help. Help get the word out there. They help get awareness into the. Into the population.And, you know, when I first came in the army talking about mental health 20 years ago was. Was not a very popular thing. And if you did, there was something wrong with you, you know, and you'd be taken and ostracized eventually.And I carried that mentality through my burnout as well.And I realized after the fact, after I went through my experience, that there were people who were more than willing to talk and share their experiences. I just wasn't looking for that.And I had that wall up that I called the work wall, that the last people that knew I was going to be burned out were the people at work. My family was starting to feel some of the effects. My friends were starting to see some of the effects, especially with the drinking.But the last people that were going to know about this were the very people who probably should have known about it was for the people at work. And so I defined myself and my identity by my work. And any type of what I would perceive as a tarnish to that identity, it was not going to.I was not going to risk that. And so the very people who could have done something about it and could have helped me were the very people that I was avoiding talking about it to.And so that was probably the biggest paradox, I think, in my experience.

Karina Schneider00:11:23

Fascinating, isn't it? It's not uncommon to other things I've heard, which is this attachment of our identity to work.Most of us spend most of our waking lives at work, and somehow this compartmentalization of how we show up at work versus how we show up at home and our ability to allow people at work to kind of see where we're at makes it really difficult for people who've gone through burnout. And I hear a very common pattern of, like, work was the last to know, and they know it. Right. When you're already off, Right.It's like you hand in your sick note, right, and you know, they're gone. And I've received comments of like, oh, we had no idea, though. The struggle has been going on for a while. So I share that just because.Yeah, I'm recognizing that's a very common pattern of experience. Yeah.

Eric Kreitz00:12:16

And that was the feedback I got as well, at work is everybody, when I came back would say, oh, we had no idea. And I tell people, yeah, that was very, very intentional. Right.I was not going to ask for help from the people I work with, who the people I drew value from for my own identity. I didn't want them to think anything left with me because my identity was wrapped up first and foremost in work.

Karina Schneider00:12:37

I know identity is a big question but what's your perspective on identity today, having gone through all of this experience you've been through?

Eric Kreitz00:12:47

Yeah, now, now that I'm retired, identity is, was, was a big factor, particularly in my transition from active duty army into, into retirement. And you know, with our uniform, we draw so much of our identity from that.We wear our rank on it, which gives us our status, our rewards are on it, our units are on it, you know, the people that we're affiliated with. And when we take off the uniform, a lot of that goes with it.And a lot of veterans struggle with identity after they get out because there's nothing to replace it with. They don't know who they are without the uniform.And another coaching company that I work with called Caveo Leadership, we have those conversations with veterans as they're transitioning out, helping them know their values and what's important to them and what actions they can take as they transition out in order to have that fulfilling job and life and relationships as they make that big move in their lives. And I struggle with that as well. But I had the advantage of going through this experience while in the Army.And so while I did have to transition into the civilian world, I'd done a little bit of that work in recovery and in treatment. On what. Where did I draw my value from? Was it from something external to me or was it from something within myself that I assigned value to?

Karina Schneider00:14:11

Thank you for sharing that.I think people who might be listening will hopefully feel some relief knowing what they might be going through around exploring where they get their value from and what work means to them, that they're not alone in having to confront those questions as well in the work that you do. Many of your clients are in business aviation, so I find that space rather interesting.So could you share a little bit about what makes that industry particularly vulnerable to burnout and what have you learned from that space that might apply to other high stress professions?

Eric Kreitz00:14:47

Yeah, I'm glad you asked that question.Most of my clients are within the business aviation industry, which are those folks that manage private jets and maintain private aircraft for high net worth individuals and organizations.And what's particularly interesting about that industry is that it parallels the military in a lot of aspects and that it can be chaotic, it can be short notice assignments, it can be high stress situations where you have a high net worth individual that needs to be somewhere quickly and there's a lot of backside support that goes into that.And so not only is the stress with the people who are directly supporting that aircraft, but it's all the way through the organization as they support the movement of these individuals. And so what's particularly interesting about business aviation is that stress is felt all throughout and it's chaotic and it moves quickly.And so while we assume that it's the pilot or it's the operations folks that, that deal mainly with the stress, that stress has a trickle down effect throughout the organization. So burnout may occur with people who are maybe not on the front lines.And so in that type of environment, burnout can be a silent killer, I guess you could say, in that it pervades all aspects of the industry and all aspects of the organization.And a lot of my clients deal with the, not only their burnout, but maybe the burnout of their immediate supervisor or the burnout of the organization's leadership. Because that type of effect I think does trickle down through an organization.

Karina Schneider00:16:22

I love that you gave this example because there's often this debate of whether burnout is an individual issue or a systemic issue. And I always say it's both. It takes a combination of factors that have to coexist for burnout to happen.But it sounds as you describe the industry, that there's probably a lot more systemic issues that can create that vulnerability to burnout.And I can imagine, or I'm hoping that these organizations are able to look at it that way given how prevalent it can be and how much it can spread in the system. Right, yeah.

Eric Kreitz00:16:57

And burnout, you know, the way I think of it is burnout is typically the outcome, but the conditions are, have to be set in order to foster that, that burnout flame. And, and using that fire analogy, right.You know, you have, you have the flame, but if you add fuel to it, which is stress or you know, chaos or toxicity within an environment, it just dumps fuel on that, that fire and, and you know, over time those, those flames get fanned and all of a sudden you have people burning out.And I, I, I really like the, the framework that you presented of, of this being a systemic issue because you, you may have a team leader or an organizational leader who is dealing with their own burnout.And the symptoms of that burnout then cause a culture or an environment where other people then start to experience their, their own symptomatic environment. And, and so yeah, I, I, I kind of like that, that framework, it is individual and is systematic.

Karina Schneider00:17:55

Yeah. And I, I think it's, it's not helpful to the discussion and to the advancing of the discourse to somehow always sideline that it's one or the other.And so I think in the work that we do, we always know, to your point, it's a set of conditions that have to exist. And some of the conditions we as individuals can control and influence and others have to be kind of on the responsibility of the organization.But it does take mutual awareness and mutual recognition, I think, to, to get to that place where we can somehow navigate both sides. But I think the example you gave is really good to highlight that. So Eric, you've been on both sides of the fence, right?You've been a leader managing someone in crisis and also the person returning after treatment. And you and I have spoken about this many times.This idea of how do you support employees coming back to work we both agree requires a lot more attention. What do most organizations get wrong about returning individuals from burnout or from any other mental health absence?

Eric Kreitz00:19:36

Yeah, I love this question, Karina, and this only comes after my experience on both sides of the issue is that most of the resources and the time are focused on the individual coming back. And most of the time the supervisor of that individual is essentially neglected.And so I know that when I came back, my boss was very well intentioned and I had all the resources in the world from my treatment facility, from the army, from the community. But nobody had had that conversation with my boss upon my return.And so he was stuck trying to balance my wellbeing with his own mission and his own objectives. And he was, I would say, completely lost. But we both struggled through that because our expectations were not aligned.We didn't know what kind of conversation to have. And it, it took a lot of awkward moments for us to, to get through that because I also didn't know what I needed.This had been my first time through something like that.And then on the other side of that, when I had people started to come back into my organization after I'd been through this, this process, I thought I knew what I, I had to do as a supervisor because I'd been through it as the returning employee. And boy, was I wrong on that. You know, it's a different set of conversations to be able to have.And everybody's experience is different and so everybody has. Deserves a unique set of conversations when they come back to work.I realize that it's not necessarily what you say, but what's the process whereby we integrate that individual back into work as a supervisor? And so there's not a script that I could have used. There wasn't a set of questions that I could have asked.I had to do my own assessment based on each individual and their needs and where we were as an organization and be able to put those things together in order to make sure that that employee came back to work effectively.

Karina Schneider00:21:26

I love that you said that. You know, for a returning employee who's never gone through this, they don't even know what to ask for. Right.But also on the other side of the fence, just because you've been through it doesn't mean you know exactly what to do. I think it offers you some empathy to the experience because you've been through it yourself.Nevertheless, every returning scenario is unique to the individual coming back. So it does require some thinking and intentionality to approach the process. If an organization had to start somewhere. Right.Because I know this can be a larger topic.But where would you advise an organization to begin supporting their leaders to more effectively and more impactfully and more positively support reintegration?

Eric Kreitz00:22:15

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think it's just having those conversations initially with the supervisor.I know in most places, I know here in the United States, we have the HIPAA laws where you can't directly ask an employee why they were out or about any specifics about a medical condition or anything like that. And so just having the supervisor be aware that there's going to be an absence, I think is a great starting point.And that the person returning may or may not be the same individual that left. They may come back with their own unique experiences that have influenced how they return and how they show up as an employee.And just having the conversation with the supervisor on perhaps how to prepare for that, how to prepare the team for that, how to adapt the mission to be able to bring that person back in, I think is a great starting point.

Karina Schneider00:23:01

Thank you. That's such an important point to make that to not assume that the person coming back is the same person who left.And I think that's what a lot of people I've worked with struggle with is they can't.They're not able to articulate or they're even afraid to articulate that they're no longer the same person because they've learned things through their absence and their recovery. They've learned some new skills. Perhaps they have different ways of approaching work. They. Which means they will show up differently.So I think this whole misconception of, oh, it's the same person, we just have to now come back and get the work done, doesn't do anyone any service, whether it's the returning person, the manager, or the team. So I love that you underlined that.

Eric Kreitz00:23:45

Yeah. And one thing, too, I realized, was the supervisor typically will rely on the returning employee to help inform them on what they should do.And a lot of the time, the returning employee, he doesn't have any idea either. My boss used to ask me, hey, so can you just tell me what you need? And be like, I don't know what I need. I've never been through this before.So there was that mutual discovery as we move forward, and that's what it needs to be is the employee figuring out how to best support their own recovery and the mission, and their boss also supporting those two factors. They both had different roles to play.

Karina Schneider00:24:22

But part of my inspiration also for doing the work that I do, particularly with this podcast, is to just highlight or create awareness about some of the things that we should be thinking about when we're going back that nobody might tell you. Right?And I'm not claiming that we know it all, but I think just being able to articulate and verbally explain what we know people go through and what people might experience is just a good way to trigger some reflection, both for the returning person and their managers as well.But as we're speaking about managers, I know you're doing some doctoral research as well, and you're looking at how leaders in recovery actually become more effective leaders. And I find this really fascinating. It probably sounds counterintuitive when you hear it for the first time.So can you tell me more about the research that you're doing and what you're learning so far?

Eric Kreitz00:25:17

I'd love to. This has been kind of a little bit of a passion project of mine.I'm working on a doctorate in executive leadership through the University of Charleston out in West Virginia. And one of the things I really started to take a look at is what is it about recovery that affects leaders and how they lead.And one of the theories that I had going into it was that leaders are more effective or can be more effective when they've gone through recovery. And what I've discovered is that there's things that people go through when they go through recovery that also helps them in leadership.And one, of course, is figuring out your role, not only in your work, but in life in relation to a higher power. And then there's also an aspect of recovery where you do really, really deep, intensive introspection.And so a lot of the time when we're in burnout or we're in active addiction, we take a look at things outside ourselves because we're really unwilling or really afraid to look at Ourselves internally and through the recovery process. That's a really big key, is taking a look at what do I stand for, what are my values, where do I stand on things morally.And just having that self awareness of what that moral foundation looks like is a huge help to leaders when it comes to authenticity.And so that authenticity pathway, you know, taking a look at what, what do I believe as a leader, how do I communicate what I believe as a leader and then how do I act. And what I believe is, is really the path to, to authenticity.And a lot of the time, you know, we've heard that authentic leaders are, are better leaders.Yeah, it's, it's knowing when we have to deviate from that moral foundation in certain situations, but then acknowledging it and putting a name on it and saying, you know, I've had to do this in support of the organization, although it conflicts with something I hold deeply and I've been able to reconcile it.And so just having those conversations as a leader and being transparent as a leader, communicating as a leader, authenticity as a leader, those are all things that typically are fostered and are catalyzed through recovery. And it's been really, really fascinating research.

Karina Schneider00:27:24

I can imagine. And yeah, I'm curious to read it when it's kind of out and published.But I think it also, as we operate in a world where mental health becomes more normalized in conversations, as we continue to work on reducing stigma, particularly in the workplace, but also talking about what recovery does to you as a human being and how that plays out in the workplace. And again, I feel like there's this leadership angle to this.And I think the job you do now is so perfect because there's a leadership component to this that I think still needs deeper exploration and the role that leaders can play when it comes to, well, being at work, and also highlighting just going through difficult human experiences and being able to recover and work through those make us better people back at work and makes work probably a healthier place to be in as well.You have so much experience that you're bringing to this work from the military, your own personal recovery, being on the board of these nonprofit organizations.And I know that you've come up as well with a framework to help organizations, leaders, individuals understand the recovery process and the return to work process. Can you tell us more about this framework? What's it called? How did you come to it?

Eric Kreitz00:28:47

Yeah, I appreciate that, Karina. And it's called the Arrive Reintegration framework.And I realized that even though the conversations are different and the people are different within the process.There's still a framework that we can walk through just to make sure that we're hitting all the important pieces of the reintegration as somebody comes back.And the arrives reintegration framework is really intended to center around the supervisor and then more tangentially around the organization, and it can incorporate the employee.But if that employee chooses not to discuss or participate in that reintegration because of their choice to not want to talk about their experience, that's okay. That's why ARRIVE centers on the supervisor, and it can also expand out to the team and the rest of the organization.So the A in ARRIVE is assessment. We just assess, where are we as an organization? Where am I as a supervisor?What are the things that I need to take into consideration as we move forward through this process? And then the two Rs are resource readiness. What do we have at our disposal? What are the employee action plans that we have?Do we have a relationship with a treatment facility? What are those things that we can use as a supervisor and as a team to be able to make this integration go smoother and be more effective?And then the I is implement.And that's where it's really key to have somebody who understands the reintegration process, the sentiments for both the supervisor and the individual returning and the rest of the team as well. Because, you know, when. When somebody leaves, that work doesn't go away. It typically gets put on on the rest of.Of the team if there is no replacement. And we're holding that position for that person to come back.So there may be resentment there because they've been pulling the load for the last, you know, three, six months, you know, a year. And so that part of the implementation has to get worked through. And there has to be an action plan that can be adjusted.And it serves as a foundation for that reintegration.And that's where somebody who does reintegration coaching really comes in key because they can see things from an outside perspective and through experience that the people there in that team may not be able to see. And then so the V is vigilance. And so once we have that action plan in place, how do we keep an eye on things? How do we look for red flags?How do we adapt the action plan if we need to as we go through and what things are we looking at? What things are we measuring or observing as we go through the reintegration process? And then the E is equilibrium? How do we do this long term?How do we effectively change or adapt the culture within an organization so that if and when this does happen again, we're prepared and we don't have to start from scratch as soon as that person leaves and we have to get through this, you know, when, when they, they start to come back and we can have more of a, of a culture of reintegration throughout the organization, whether that looks like quarterly training or it looks like a sit down with supervisors who may have high risk individuals on their team.And if you have an organization of 100 people, 10 at any given point are either dealing with mental health or substance abuse issues, and one to two of those people may be actively ready to go into some kind of treatment. And so those are the statistics. But larger organizations may have less and smaller organizations may have more. Everybody's an individual.And the type of work that we do may foster different levels of burnout.So if you're in a high intensity type occupation, you could have 20 to 30% of people in active addiction or in a mental health crisis, just depending on the different factors that contribute to the occupation.

Karina Schneider00:32:34

There are so many things that I really appreciate about the ARRIVE framework. For one, that it is comprehensive. It looks at different elements to the entire reintegration experience.I love the sustainability aspect of it and the long term thinking around it.And I forgot the other thing that I was going to say that I really loved about it, which I will come back to, but there was one that, darn it, it skipped my mind. But I'll remember that later.So there's so many things that's really great about this framework and I wonder how have, when you, when you've had the opportunity to present this framework to leaders and teams, what types of responses do you typically get?

Eric Kreitz00:33:17

Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. I get, wow, I didn't know we needed that until you talked about it.

Karina Schneider00:33:21

Right.

Eric Kreitz00:33:22

I knew it. I think it just goes to show that people are very well intentioned, but they don't know what to ask about, they don't know what to look for.And it's not until folks like you educate people on the things that are out there, you know, whether it's the solution and the ARRIVE framework or it's, it's the problem, which is employee burnout. And, and so every time I tell somebody, they always pause and then they think and they go, wow, you know what, you're right, I never thought of that.So I'm hoping this podcast can, can help get that word out.

Karina Schneider00:33:55

My hopes as well.The other thing that I really love about the framework as you described it, I wonder whether it also helps normalize some of these difficult emotions that might exist in managers and teams that also don't get expressed.And I share that because I've had managers who sometimes admit to carrying some guilt about their employee leaving, thinking that they should have spotted it, or could they have caused something, could they have prevented it? So they carry some guilt. They carry the vulnerability of not knowing what to do.You talked about teams feeling probably feeling some resentment for the extra load that they've had to take on. And these are normal, valid emotions to have, but I can imagine can be very difficult for people to admit.And what I appreciate about the framework is that I wonder if that also offers space to allow, whether it's expressly mentioned or not. But it just kind of normalizes like, hey, these are things to think about and there's something we can do about it. Does that make sense?

Eric Kreitz00:34:57

It does make sense. And that's, that's where the coaching really comes in.And as, as we're implementing this, this model, you know, I bring aspects of, of coaching into it. And so it gives space for people to be able to express those, those sentiments. And I found too, that people fall on one of two sides of the line.And we talked about earlier about supervisors balancing people and mission when it comes to reintegration.And the supervisors that fall too far on the side of people will put a lot of effort and a lot of emotional energy into making sure that individual is taken care of, almost to the detriment of the individual, because they're not allowing that individual to experience what it's like to come into work fully and give them agency and provide them purpose. They've taken those things from them in an attempt to make them feel comfortable and welcome, but they've kind of gone too far in that direction.And then there are people who fall on the other side of the line towards mission, and they just don't know what to do with the employee. So they're just not going to do anything with the employee.And they lean into the mission and they provide, you know, the work back to the individual right away that, that they may have been missing. And then they, they treat the individual as if nothing ever happened.And because they're afraid that if they can't meet the mission, then they're not doing a good job as, as a supervisor. And if they can't figure out how to integrate that person effectively, then they're not doing a very good job as a supervisor either.And so there's I think there's fear on both sides of that line. One is fear of failing the mission and one is fear of failing the person.And so what reintegration coaching does is it helps find that equilibrium for that manager. As we're going through that reintegration process.

Karina Schneider00:36:36

I appreciate you using the word equilibrium, right, Because I don't know that there would be just one point where, or one pattern or one approach that, you know, as we keep saying, it's very, it's very individual. Right. So like, where on that spectrum people should fall or a manager should fall and their approach will vary.And so having a framework to rely on, having somebody like you to coach them through it, can help figure out, okay, where, where in the spectrum should I be that adds the most value to the process overall and gets to the best possible outcome? And that's, that's really interesting to hear. If people are interested to work with you, can you share a little bit about what people can expect?What's it like to work with you, given all the experience that you bring and the types of industries and clients you work with, Typically, who reaches out to you for help?

Eric Kreitz00:37:27

For more information? Karina, I think you've included my website in the show notes, but when somebody reaches out to me initially, we'll just talk about what's going on.Fill me in on the situation. What are the negative effects that you're experiencing because of what your organization and perhaps your supervisor is going through?Or if you are the supervisor, what apprehensions do you have? You know, how long is it going to take? And we'll do a discovery call and we'll figure out, you know, what the path ahead for you may look like.With the ARRIVE model, sometimes it can be as short as, you know, two to three weeks, and other times, if there's a large team or if it's a more complicated situation, it can be a couple of months, up to six months. The ARRIVE framework is adaptive enough to be able to hold those processes and move forward.And so if you need help with getting the mission back on track, as a result, we can work and focus there, or if the mission is going fine, but you're concerned about whether or not this person is going to be able to reintegrate effectively, then we can shift the ARRIVE framework to that end as well.You know, shrm here in the United States, a society for human resource managers has put out that if you lose an employee, especially one that's been there for a number of years, it could take up to two and a half times their salary to replace that person in recruiting, onboarding, training, work experience to get that person back. And so especially if it's somebody who has a lot of institutional knowledge, it would be beneficial to an organization to try and retain that person.And that's what this is really aimed at is helping the supervisor retain those individuals who are, are valuable to, to an organization and they don't, they don't want to lose. And we can, we can help with that.

Karina Schneider00:39:11

Thank you for sharing what the process would look like working with you. And yes, we will add your contact information in the show notes. So if people are interested, they know where to find you.But yes, I think to your point about the cost of replacing someone, there is a, there are many different interests to wanting to retain the person coming back if that's the right solution. Right. Like we. Sometimes there are cases where staying might not best thing on either side.But that sustainability and that retention I can imagine will have long term impact because other people who are watching this play out will probably also make some decisions for themselves of what outcomes are possible if it's their turn, hopefully not.But when it happens to them and they have to go on extended absence and come back, what they observe that other people go through is something that they will make assumptions about what they might go through as well. So I think there's a bigger impact as well in the team and in the organization when we experience and observe successful reintegration. Right.Eric, as we're wrapping up our conversation, I want to spend just a few minutes focusing on the returning employee. We have people listening to us right now who's in the middle of burnout.Potentially they're on medical leave or they're afraid of the possibility of taking extended time off because they're unsure about what returning could look like. I also know from studies that the longer people take to return, the more likely it is that they won't or that they will return and end up leaving.So there's a time horizon, I think that's important if we want to see successful reintegration. So if someone's listening and they're terrified of taking that time off, what would you tell them?

Eric Kreitz00:41:35

The most important thing from my experience was isolation is a bad thing. I know that whenever we go through these types of experiences, isolation sometimes helps us find a little bit of solace.But isolation is, in my experiences is the worst thing I could have done.And so I would say reach out to somebody, whether friend, you know, medical professional, somebody at work, you know, just being able to talk to Someone I think is, is a good start in that process. And then the other thing too is just expectation management.You know, I think a lot of my expectations for both coming back and for welcome somebody back were a little bit off.You know, I thought when I got back to work, people were going to be thinking one way and they, they weren't because the only thing I had to go off of was what was in my head. And so communication definitely would have helped that with the folks I was returning to.And I really wish I'd spoken with people before I went back to work. I didn't speak to people until I was showing up there on my first day.And so communicating with the organization and communicating with my supervisor before I came back I think would have been really helpful.

Karina Schneider00:42:43

I appreciate you saying that. And I remember going through something similar. I think I was so afraid of reaching out to people and also in the end retreated.And it became really hard to reach back out to people after I was gone because I had all these assumptions in my head throughout the time that I was absent about what they might be thinking or do people even still care and so on and so forth.And the one thing I've learned is there are cases where there are just too many assumptions happening on both ends, both on the employee side and the organization side.And to your point, communication is just really such a helpful way to demystify some of these things and to manage expectations, but also to ease the return down the road. It's not like you just disappeared and then suddenly you're back. Right? That can be really difficult for people.Are there any other misconceptions or misunderstandings about recovery that might be helpful for burnt out professionals to know about that? Okay, this is a misconception. It's not necessarily true.

Eric Kreitz00:43:44

Yeah, I think a common misconception is that once I go through recovery, all my problems are solved. You know, it's, it's essentially, you know, my problems are still there now I have tools to deal with them. And I think the same is for burnout.You know, the same stressors, the same factors, the same people that may have been causing the burnout are still going to be there.It's how we deal with those things that are going to help us mitigate any type of adverse reaction, whether that's know, addiction or mental health or just burnout in general. But it's, it's knowing how to deal with those things now that is going to be the key to getting through the next step as you reintegrate thinking.

Karina Schneider00:44:23

A little bit about the person returning to work.If you had to narrow down or distill kind of what's the one most important conversation they need to start with or to have with our manager that we might be avoiding most of the time, what would that be?

Eric Kreitz00:44:41

Yeah, vulnerability is tough. Being vulnerable is tough. And so the conversation I wish I'd had with my supervisor coming back was, hey, I don't know all the answers.I know I just went through this experience, but if you're going to ask me, how do you best take care of me, I can't give you that answer right now. And being okay with not knowing is okay. And I was afraid my supervisor was going to be like, hey, you just went through this experience.What do you mean you don't know the answer? Yeah, yeah, Well, I. Yeah, I haven't gone through it before. And. And it's as much a learning journey for me as it. As it is going to be for.For my supervisor. And so okay with not having the right answer and letting your supervisor know that you're not going to have all the answers is key, I think.

Karina Schneider00:45:26

I love that, and I love the. The openness to having managers say that they don't have all the answers either. But creating that, hey, let's figure this out together.We both have common goals we want to achieve together with the team. So, you know, keeping that channel open to figuring it out as we go I think is such a helpful perspective to have.

Eric Kreitz00:45:49

Yeah, I agree. I agree. And it's where the supervisor and the returning individual are now a team in that journey, because it's a journey for both of them.And, you know, that's, again, that's where reintegration coaching can come in and facilitate that. That relationship and that journey and make it a couple of weeks of awkwardness as opposed to a couple months.

Karina Schneider00:46:12

Yeah. And I think normalizing those awkward couple of weeks is so important too. Right.Like, we kind of sometimes go in, I use this analogy before, like, coming back from my parental leave and like, my office was decorated with a welcome banner and there were gifts and there were these, you know, very joyful, welcoming people. And you come back from mental health absence to silence. That's part of the awkwardness.And out of good intention, people are a bit more careful and cautious about what to say and what not to say and so on and so forth. But it can be awkward, Right.Starting to socialize with people again, starting to recognize your own energy patterns and what's triggering and what's not triggering and, you know, responding to Questions like, well meaning questions that might feel uncomfortable. There are so many things that play into, into the first few weeks.But just recognizing like, hey, if you're in it together, you'll find your way through it with good communication, I think is helpful advice.I want to touch something very quickly on the ARRIVE framework when you talked about vigilance, because I think this is also very much underestimated. To the returning employee who's gone through burnout, what does this look like for them? What do they need to be particularly vigilant about?

Eric Kreitz00:47:26

Yeah, that's good question.So for vigilance for the returning employee looks like what, what are those red flags or those positive milestones that we need to set and then start to look for. And so it could be as simple as, you know, maybe I, I'm late to work three days in a row.That is, that's going to start a cycle of a bad habit that's going to help me split back into maybe some even worse habits.It could be, you know, I'm missing my, my deadlines on these things that we agree to, you know, and those are metrics that the boss and the employee can take a look at and they set those together and there's also room to adjust those things. And so it's really anything that shows a trend for that supervisor and for that employee for both the mission and the reintegration.And so if we see positive trending things and positive trending habits and actions, then we know that those are things that maybe we lean into and perhaps reinforce or on the opposite end of the spectrum, we start to see those, those negative trends or metrics not being met that have been mutually agreed upon, we can start to address those and see if the metrics either have to be changed or if the action plan or behavior of either the supervisor or the individual have to be changed.

Karina Schneider00:48:41

Yeah.

Eric Kreitz00:48:42

And so vigilance is really just making sure that we're on track with the goals we set out for the reintegration.

Karina Schneider00:48:48

Yeah. This is a good reminder of what you said also earlier, that recovery doesn't mean all the problems are solved.That it is possible that we fall back to old patterns just because we're coming back to a system that knew us a certain way or potentially a system that hasn't changed while we were gone anyway. And so just really paying attention to especially those early weeks and early months for what's going on and what are the patterns is really helpful.Sometimes I find there's this assumption of like, oh, you're back. It's day one, and we forget anything that's happened prior, and we just move on with our normal routines and on both sides.But even managers forgetting to check in every so often to ensure that we're on track. So I think that's a really helpful advice to give. And vigilance is a good word to remember. Eric, this was such a great conversation.I think I know we could have continued going on longer than we have.And I really appreciate the amount of experience you've shared, the thought you've put into the systemic aspects of reintegration, which is looking also at building the leadership capability and the organization's capability to support successful reintegration and putting this framework together. Any last words you want to close with? Any words of wisdom for the last couple of seconds?

Eric Kreitz00:50:10

We have, yeah, I appreciate that, Karina. And I think the most important thing to know is that you, as a supervisor, are not alone in the process.You're not the first one to go through the reintegration of an employee. And for the employee, it's the same thing with burnout or whatever.The reason is that you've had to leave work and come back is that there's resources out there and there's ways to make this necessarily easier but more enlightening and more effective as folks come back into work. And the goal for me is to help with that psychological safety and that ability for the mission to continue.And so burnout isn't something that people have to live with resources out there, and there are ways to help mitigate that burnout. Because for me, in my situation, burnout was my problem until it wasn't.And the decision to get help was taken out of my hands and was put in the hands of my organization. And in hindsight, I wish it had been in my hands and I was able to do it on my terms.But now, as a result, I'm able to talk to other people about, you know, different pathways that exist out there.

Karina Schneider00:51:20

Eric, I am incredibly grateful, both as somebody who's been through burnout, somebody who shares a common mission as you, as to helping people get back to work.I'm so grateful for your generosity, for having capacity to tackle this work, because I can imagine it's not easy all the time, and for coming on the show and sharing so much of these insights, of these tips, of these perspectives.And I'm hoping that the people who have been listening to this will feel some sense of relief, some sense of comfort, some sense of hope that recovery is possible, and the sense of agency and empowerment, too. Of like there's so much in our own hands that we can accomplish and we can do for ourselves if we wanted to.So I just want to send my heartfelt appreciation for you being here today.

Eric Kreitz00:52:17

Yeah, thanks for having me on, Karina. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to people about this.