Boundaries in a Messy Reality featuring Emma Saccomani

Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Today I'm really excited to be joined by Emma Saccomani to talk about all things boundaries.Emma supports businesses with practical training to understand their roles, responsibilities and boundaries when it comes to workplace mental health.She also teaches mental health first aid programs for individuals and managers and as a boundaries expert and recovering people pleaser, which I know many of us can relate to. She also works one to one with anyone who really wants to build a boundaries toolkit for dealing with our messy reality.In this episode, we cover a wide range of themes around boundaries and Emma so generously shares her personal stories and wisdom about how we experience boundaries in a world that can feel messy and complex.So whether you are recovering from burnout or not, I am so sure you will find a lot of perspective shifts and practical tips on to reflect on the boundaries you have for your life. I hope you enjoy the show. Emma, thank you for joining me on the show today. I'm so excited to have you.We've spoken or we've exchanged offline about a lot of topics around mental health.I shared with you that the intention for Back After Burnout was to give space for people to reflect on their return to work and some of the things that we don't really think think about or the things that we don't consider when we're coming back to work after burnout. And I thought, yeah, there has to be an episode on boundaries and there was no other person I wanted to have this conversation with than you.So thank you so much for your time and for joining me today.

It's an absolute pleasure. Well, we'll talk. It's messy reality, isn't it? We'll talk more about that. So yeah, it's an absolute pleasure to be here.And in the same way, it's a real privilege that you think about me when it comes to boundaries. You're my go to about return to work.

Thank you, I appreciate that. So just to get us started, Emma, tell us about what you do and what got you to pay specific attention on boundaries.

Right. Well, I like to talk about wearing three key hats. So the first hat, my professional hat.So that's a mix of being an employee and also being a freelancer. And then I have what I call my giving hat.And so that might be formal volunteering or it might be just being a giving person, which I suspect you are a lot. And then my third hat, I'm a mom, a wife, a sister, a daughter, all those kinds of things.And it's really fascinating how various Experiences have very much shaped me and if I think about my work life. So we know work can be part of the problem, don't we, when it comes to our mental health and stress.And I think a lot of us have probably left, not just workplaces or roles, work roles. We've met managers, haven't we? And I think we know some managers bring out the best of us, some bring out the worst of us.I've certainly left certain roles because of that. But also work can be part of the solution as well.Now, interestingly, within being a freelancer, it's really fascinating how the workplace has certain structures, doesn't it?And whilst there might be restrictions and that might be quite annoying as well, you certainly realize that boundaries that you've taken for granted suddenly don't exist.But what's fascinating, I think, around boundaries is I really just thought about boundaries in terms of the physical, the leaving things, knowing when to let go, to leave.You know, probably compared to a lot of your listeners, I probably have a threshold perhaps lower than some people to know this is the time to walk away. And so that's one of the most important boundaries I've learned is known to walk away.But in terms of being a mum and going through some real roller coaster teenage years, and certainly teenagers love to push boundaries, don't they?

And it's a. I heard it starts earlier than that.

It does, it does. But of course, in terms of boundaries, I couldn't do my usual strategy. I couldn't leave. I can't just walk out.It's not a strategy that's going to, going to work. But interestingly, you sort of start to understand, okay, what's my role in, you know, these difficult situations?For example, certainly in my role upskilling businesses so they understand their roles and responsibilities around mental health. I bring, you know, so much compassion and practical experience and.And yet sometimes because I'm a mum, then sometimes I wear my mum hat and when I'm under stress, I might go there before thinking, hold on, it's not my responsibility to fix this.

Right?

So again, I think it's fantastic we're raising so much awareness, isn't it?

Yeah.

But if we're only going as far as awareness, and we are not, then explaining to people, okay, you're somebody who gives. You've got to learn the boundaries piece, otherwise you'll just burnout.

Right.

The big topic of your podcast.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing all of that. And as I'm listening to you, it's making me recognize that boundaries are not static.They take different shapes and forms depending on the roles that we play.And I was struck by what you said about responsibility because as I, in my earlier learnings around boundaries, which I didn't learn at a really young age, so it took me some time to understand what boundaries are about. And it's not just about saying no, but that it comes with responsibility or it's attached to responsibility. For me, it's a.It's a partnership I don't often hear about. So I. I wonder if you can say a little bit more about what that means.Why is it the responsible thing to do to know the boundaries and to implement them or to act upon the boundaries?

Yeah, well, funny enough, before we even talk about that, a huge learning I had around boundaries was even understanding my attitude.And one of the first myths I like to bust around boundaries is they're neither good nor bad inherently, because they're on a scale and they can be either too rigid at one end. And of course, if boundaries are rigid, we sort of put ourselves in a box and we're not experiencing life fully. But equally.And this happens a lot because I think you mentioned people pleasing and. Or I know that's a big thing in your work. We can be too porous or too leaky with our boundaries. We say yes to everything.We're too scared to say no, or we might even interfere and try to fix where it's not perhaps our business to do so, or we go too far. So, interestingly, I guess it's about getting the kind of just right. So I'd like to talk about the. The Goldilocks of boundaries.And that's really difficult. And really the idea of a boundary is it's not telling people what to do, it's not demanding that people do other things.Everyone's going to have their own needs, they're all going to have their window on the world, their own experiences, their own baggage. They're not in our heads, are they? The first step is thinking about what is the boundary I need to set, and then doing that in a respectful way.We also need to be mindful that if we're changing our behaviour from the behaviours they're used to, it might take a little time for them to adjust.And we need to both respect that we've come from a. Hopefully from a thoughtful place and that also it's quite messy and they're only human and they may react in a way that isn't so helpful in that moment. And I think then it's just us Becoming clear that it might take a little while and we set a boundary or sometimes we don't even communicate.We just assume people are going to understand. So are we communicating the boundary? And then once we've communicated it, we have to understand that people have their own autonomy.But we then need to decide what is in our control and what are we going to do. But you can't force someone to do something.

So, Emma, as I'm listening to you, there are several steps that actually takes place when we're exercising or implementing a good boundary system. One is that we understand what those boundaries are and where do we source these boundaries from.But it's communicating it to others who will be in a way impacted by this boundary and then recognizing that if the receiving party is not appreciating it or is not helpful to them or it's not benefiting them, they might respond in a way that is indicating that it's not accepted.It comes up a lot when I'm working with clients on the return to work because usually in nine out of 10 cases, there's a lot of boundary work that happens in that time.And if they're going back to the same workplace, it usually means that there's a new boundary that's coming through as they're talking about or as they're working through their burnout recovery. And sometimes it's really forgotten that, well, we have to tell the people around us that we're not going to be behaving the same way.To your point, we just take it for granted. So can you speak about where do these boundaries come from and how do we go through that process of discovering and exploring those boundaries?

I think understanding that us humans are messy, the world we live in is really messy. And perhaps boundaries that used to be in place between the workplace and the home, those don't exist anymore.And where do those boundaries come from? I know a topic you like to talk about a lot is what our values are. What is motivating us.I always think with boundaries we think a lot about other people. But let's always go back to self boundaries. Let's go back to ourself. What is driving us? What is motivating us? Is it things that bring us joy?But we have to be very aware that the things that bring us joy can also bring us pain.Often when people are going through really difficult times and vulnerable to burnout is when they're perhaps following other people's needs and not really tapping into their own needs a lot. And Karina, if I asked you what comes to mind when I say the word boundaries or you hear that word or you see it written, what image comes to mind?

The old version of me would have this image of just a person disappointed.And I think it touches a bit on what you said earlier, that it's the tendency to put other people's needs first and boundaries being, well, not doing that and therefore, you know, you hurt other people or you disappoint other people. Today, the image that comes to my mind is a heart. And for me, the interpretation behind it is myself and my self respect.And if I don't respect myself, how do I expect other people to respect me?

Well, that's beautiful. Now my gut reaction would be no entry signs.I love that idea that your fear reaction was that someone was going to be disappointed and disappointed with you. But also one of my other images is a fence.Now we can have rigid fences with barbed wire and not very nice, or we can have a lovely white picket fence sphinx with flowers that we chat to our neighbor over.And it's really helpful if we understand what our go to fear reaction is, if we can understand is that being a helpful protector or is it hindering us? There's always this playoff between rigidity. Sometimes we need that rigidity, but sometimes we need that flexibility as well.And that's a beautiful one. You saying about a heart and respect, it's incredibly helpful if we can think of a boundary is a guidebook to you and me. It's what I'm okay with.It's what you're okay with. It's not rocket science, is it? And also it's about opening up possibilities. It doesn't have to shut down possibilities.I've been very pleasantly surprised about how people are like, oh, cool. That's really. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. You've made that really clear.

Yeah, most people will actually appreciate it because at the end of the day, people want harmonious relationships. People want their needs met and they want to meet your needs. Hopefully it's a mutual thing to want to support each other and help each other out.And if we can be all equally clear or all make the effort to be clear about what do we all need to know about each other to get to the outcome we're all striving for. And the earlier we're able to do that, the easier the process gets or the easier the relationship is.And to your point, about no is a complete sentence. I do know that for a lot of people, just the simple word of saying no can be really really difficult.Because if you're a recovering people pleaser or conflict averse, the word no can feel loaded with unpleasant emotions. And sometimes no is also not the answer. Right.Like there are things we can say where we say it's not a no, it's just like it's not now or it's not in this way. I remember writing about this once before. There are five different ways you can say no without using the word no.Because people who receive the word no can also have a difficult reaction to it. How do we learn to communicate in ways that are much more open?What you said something earlier about that it opens up opportunities rather than shuts things down. Because most of the time the intention is to not shut things down.

Absolutely.And certainly the first thing I have learned, and I can even remember the first time I said no at work in a hierarchical situation, a very senior person came to me and they had an interesting idea, but it didn't really align with what we were trying to achieve with the program.And if I'd said yes to that, then it would have meant a load of saying yes to a load of other things and it would have really diluted what the program was doing. And this is where I learned about the pause.It's really useful to start being aware of what's going on in your body and those kind of stress reactions that you had recognize, oh, this is very uncomfortable. Okay, I think I need some time for this. So definitely really respecting and recognizing that pause is really important.And I think asking for time to consider something. So in that case, I didn't have to respond to that email straight away. I could go home a little, think about it.And just that phrase, well, let me just think about that just creates the pause or I'll get back to you later or you know, when do you need to know by.And even just the physical pause this if your gut reaction and you're going to go to people, please, you've got to create that space so that your fear brain doesn't say yes before your logic brain has had a chance to go, hmm, let me just think about this a moment. Interestingly, with that situation, had a good think about it and I was thinking about this program. What are we trying to achieve?And we've only got a limited amount of time. So that really helped me think, okay, what is right for this?And then in terms of the hierarchy, I thought, well, okay, they are senior to me, but in fact, on this actual program, I own this program on their behalf. I am the one that can make that decision. I can take responsibility for that decision.And we don't always get the opportunity to think how can we say no or push back on something in a more personal way. It just depends, doesn't it? We don't always have that time. We're often communicating remotely. But I went to see that leader and just explained it.So I thanked them because in a way, hearing that they cared enough and they wanted to be involved in it. So I wanted to acknowledge that just saying this is what we're trying to achieve and then just explain why it wouldn't work.And honestly, because the fact that I can remember it now and what is it, 10, 15 years later, and their reaction was like, oh yeah, thank you for letting me know. Yeah, oh yeah, good. And it's like, oh, wow, okay. The world didn't fall apart.And remembering that because our fear brain is going to remember the difficult situations. And I think reminding ourselves we will all have had situations where we have achieved something, we have had to push back and that it did go well.Just because we've learned that we need boundaries, we may always be living with that fear reaction of, oh, I'm going to disappoint someone. And if we can just sit with that discomfort. So again, it's the pause, isn't it? It's the discomfort and understanding.I like the phrase building guilt resiliency.If we can sit with that discomfort of the guilt, pause with it and know that we are doing something for long term gain and there will be short term discomfort, but it is for long term gain.And just to give an example, if a friend or a colleague messages and you immediately want to reply straight away, but you're doing something else or you haven't quite thought of how to reply to it, but you're feeling guilty and, and I now sit with that guilt deliberately.And in a way it's quite hilarious because there's friends and colleagues who I know feel the same way and so would never expect me to reply back straight away and yet I'm still going to feel this discomfort. And I remember that I am role modeling for them. I'm role modeling for my daughters, I'm role modeling for all.I mean, I call myself a recovering people pleaser, so I'm role modeling for people pleasers everywhere really.

Well, I'm in that boat with you. I think this is a, maybe a longer recovery process, who knows? But we're getting there. One, one boundary at a time.There's so many things that you said that I think is really so helpful. And one of this thing is the power of the pause. Right.If we know our default pattern is to jump in quickly and to say yes and to give more than what we have capacity for, the pause is such a helpful way to say, let me just think about this. Do I really have capacity for this? Is this the right time? And again, it's not about disappointing others or saying no.It's about how do we get to a successful outcome, an outcome we both share, but in a way that works for both of us and not just for one party.

I think something that can be incredibly helpful is practicing in low stake situations.

Yeah, that's great.

And so if I've been invited to something and maybe the old me might make up an excuse because we don't want to hurt someone's feelings.

Yeah.

But what I've started doing is being quite honest and saying, oh, that sounds really great, but at the moment I don't think I've quite got the capacity for that. And so I'm a bit more honest. And so I'm practicing when, you know, the stakes aren't quite so high. And I'm practicing with people I really trust.And so then we start to get much more used to it. So because it is that relationship thing that you're talking about, it's us, either another human being or with technology.And so can we identify those situations, build up some confidence and practice as well?

There's two things that come to my mind as you say that one of the things we often talk about with return to work or the preparation bit for return to work is how do you create test situations. And it's like you simulate what it might feel like back at work before you're back at work. Right.So maybe you go through some volunteer work or maybe you take on some extra responsibilities or you reconnect with certain individuals before you officially have to do that back and work.But the other thing that you said I find really so helpful is to remind ourselves, and if we have to journal it or write it down, where have we implemented our boundaries?And it worked well for us and for the other person potentially, if we're referring to a second person, in a way minimizes the fear that comes up when we're feeling like we're gonna have to disappoint someone else or do something different that people might like or not like. So building a catalog of experiences and say, this worked out really well, or like, look at that, I managed it.And what I imagined the worst fear I had didn't come true. And hopefully people even appreciate and give an appreciative response to us.Implementing our boundaries can, in a way, hopefully over time, minimize that fear response that we're having.

I think so.And remembering that we've probably got role models ourselves, I think that other relationship piece is remembering that we can have a boundary buddy. We can have someone that we share the messy reality and have a bit of a laugh about it and remember, wow, I was great on this. And then, oh, classic.I fell into that same old trap again. And then you keep things in perspective, don't you, rather than go down that anxiety spiral, if you like.

Yeah, and that's actually a really great tip of just testing out with somebody else you trust to say, well, what would it sound like if this is how I responded?And having usually a third person have that outside perspective to say, you're catastrophizing it, or you're probably overthinking it, and no, it sounds totally fine to go ahead and escape a situation you don't want or decline an invitation that you don't have the capacity for. So in many ways we feel like we're alone in this whole process and we're dealing with boundaries with ourselves, but actually we don't. Right.We have people around us that we can look to and turn to for just partnership and sparing as we figure the messiness. You talked about noticing sensations in the body, for example. But what are other ways for people who might not be so connected to.

To their bodies to know, oh, that's an interesting one.It would be quite useful thinking in terms of all the different boundary types and then how we might come across when a boundary has been crossed, if you like. When I did research originally, I was coming up with about 24 different types of boundaries. And then I thought, my goodness, I need boundaries.About the whole topic of boundaries, you've got physical boundaries, time boundaries, and mental and emotional boundaries.And in terms of the emotional boundaries, thinking about our own emotions and how we're managing them, we might start to feel that overwhelm, or we might be getting that overwhelm from someone else.So how are we managing someone else's expression of if they're going through a difficult time, we may just find, crikey, this is really exhausting being around that person. But then again, it's where that pause can be very helpful because is it that we've just got a load of assumptions?Is it due to our window on the world? And do we need a bit more curiosity? Do we need a Bit more flexibility around certain topics. Yeah.So I like to really bring boundaries back down to our relationship with other people, but our relationship with the wider world and of course the digital space and communities and politics and then most importantly, back to our boundaries with ourselves.

I appreciate you saying that because what was surprising to me as I worked more and more with individuals who struggled with burnout was, yes, it was stress, but when you get to the root of the stress and one of the things that they uncovered through therapy before they came to return to work coaching was they were exposed to situations or living a life that was actually not something that matched what they value, or there was this absolute misalignment between, for example, a job that they were doing versus what they really wanted or values that were playing out in the organization that they don't align with. And that really takes a turn because we're fighting against a system because you feel like you have to. And that takes a toll on our beings.So seeing the link of that to burnout and depression and other similar conditions is, I think, really eye opening to go back to. This is something we can do something about. Right.The more aware we are about what's important to us, the more we can design a life that hopefully supports that.And if we have to stay in a situation that's not in alignment with ourselves, if we choose to, because we have to, we're at least aware that we're doing it and we can protect ourselves from the consequences of that. And I'm curious, with the work you do in workplaces, how do you introduce the topic of boundaries as far as health and well being is concerned?Because again, if a manager has an attitude about boundaries that's not really helpful or supportive, and you have an employee that's trying to assert themselves and advocate for their boundaries, what scenarios have you seen play out and how does it benefit organizations to rethink boundaries?

Oh, interesting. And before we tackle that, I just wanted to respond to what you said.So really, that acceptance piece, the alignment, it was making me think of that word acceptance and how we're not telling people to accept toxic situations or anything like that. But that acceptance of what's in your control and what's not in your control is very, very powerful.And it means that we can put our energy and be more productive on things that where we are going to be able to influence. And that does lead really nicely into what you're talking about in the workplace and how you introduce boundaries.Because I often find workplaces, they're either scared because they Think if we're supporting everyone and we're talking about all this, if we give this to one person, everyone's going to expect it and it's helping them understand that the boundaries are there to protect them as well. So if we can enable someone to come back to work and be productive, that's going to be a win in itself.It's not always going to work out and that's okay in terms of as long as we are enabling someone to have some dignity and even then if they decide it doesn't work, then we've role modelled to the rest of the business.

So for organizations or for managers who might be listening to this, thinking about how do they create an open conversation for people to test their boundaries or to communicate their boundaries and be accepted for those, hopefully in the end you get the best out of your people. Right. Like at the end of the day, that's what organizations want, is to get the best out of their people to be able to do good work.And the good work leads to good business outcomes.And if people need to assert certain boundaries to be able to do that, my hope is that more spaces and more conversations can happen just as part of normal team meetings and team development. All these things we do in the workplace around we have a new team, so let's get to know each other and they kind of stay surface level travel.But I think hopefully we can deepen the conversation to say what allows you to do your best work? Or when do we need to know that we need to leave you alone?Or when do you feel like you're not performing at your best, that it's time for you to just rather get some rest and recovery into your day.I trust that the increased awareness around mental health is also translating into some of these really practical things that managers and employees can do.

Yeah. And I think for managers to understand that absolutely, they're humans, they are always going to be wearing their manager hat.And so for them to be seen to be taking a break, for them to have in their diary that they are going to the gym, whatever they need to do.Because if you've got a culture where you're trusting that the work is getting done and there is transparency that can be really helpful and this idea that you wouldn't expect your car to run on empty and so why are we expecting employees or why are managers expecting themselves to run on empty?

You've shared a lot of really important nuggets about how we can integrate better boundaries in our lives.Is there anything else you want to Add particularly for our audience who are listening to this and are probably in their recovery phase from burnout, they're rethinking the relationship to work and how they might want to show up differently in the future. Is there anything else you want to say about boundaries for this particular group of listeners that we have?

Something I haven't mentioned is sometimes we can have a quiet boundary so we don't always have to justify ourselves. We can just quietly take a step back. So I think that that's a nice one and I'm so joyous that I'm going to have another podcast to recommend.But I think for people to take some time to get curious and just explore if they feel able to, and they might not have the energy to read a book, for example. But certainly I find the listening of podcasts really comforting. And we've talked about it already.That whole thing around having a buddy, having someone in your corner that you can just be your honest, messy self with, I think that would be one of the most important things. Understanding what does success mean for you. And that might be quite a radical shift from what you thought it meant for you as well.Yeah, often people want to run before they can walk and I think take baby steps. Because if you think one of the difficulties that probably got them into the place of burnout was the go, go, go, got to do everything by tomorrow.I've always been quite good at taking the time and thinking that if I sit there for half an hour, read a book with a cup of tea, that's a job well done. Whereas I do know people that have guilt around that. So I guess that self care piece, what brings you joy?You know, the simple things that bring you joy. In fact. Yeah, that's just reminded me for everyone to have their at hand to hand, if you like, an overwhelm toolkit.So in that moment of overwhelm, I know that I probably need to get up from my desk, why not go and make a cup of tea? Sometimes listening to a piece of music or doing something physical, going for a very quick, quick walk again, reaching out to a friend.And I've even found that even just the reaching out to someone or expressing, oh, I've got this thing expressing it, by the time they've come back, I've already made my peace with it.

Absolutely. I love that you say that. One of the things that we talk a lot also in the return to work preparation is identifying your care.And I know I sound like I'm formalizing care team a lot, but I Do it on purpose because we take it so much for granted that we're going through this on our own and we just have to deal with it and learn through it and hopefully things work out well. But actually the more that we have people around us, a boundary buddy, as an example, to say, hey Emma, can you be my boundary buddy?Here's where I think I'm gonna trip over when I'm back at work. And so can we talk about this or can you be that person that I'm gonna reach out to? And then you say yes.And then you will exercise a boundary by saying, I might not respond to you right away, but you'll hear from me in 24 hours. Right. And by the time we go through that, it just makes people feel a little bit less alone and so much more supported.Because as you said, we take baby steps, we're testing things out, we're experimenting and some things will work really, really well. And I'm happy when people go back to work and it's easy and it's successful and it's smooth and. But in many cases it's not right.And so just being able to have a place to go to, to test some of these things out, to have an overwhelmed toolkit, which I think is such a brilliant idea that I might credit you for when I mention it.

10 other times, I think because we will have managers and leaders listening and we will have people who may have had their own experience, difficult experiences, but then be managing other people around this, this idea.Don't make assumptions just because maybe you, when you came back to work or when you had a struggle, it was fantastic that this certain project was taken away from you and that you were given a certain type of care. It's no decision about me without me. Because you might come back to work and you might have really been looking forward to that big project.And then a very well meaning manager says, don't worry, all you've got to do now is look through three months worth of emails. You know, we've taken that away.And in fact that can create more anxiety for that individual if that may have been the one thing that they were looking forward to coming back to.Just back to your last question around letting people know one of the traps that they might fall back into is having these high expectations of themselves and perhaps overcompensating. And I'm sure you've seen that as well. So that's where it fits in with start small, be kind to yourself, and you've really got nothing to prove.And if you're a bit more aligned with what's important and meaningful to you and that's bigger than just success in that. What that success in that job role, then I think it's going to help bring that perspective.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.I think it's such a process of growth and transformation to come out of burnout with an evolved understanding of what's important to us and how we can create greater alignment and also just have better coping mechanisms for the difficulties that we might go through every day.I know you're going to give us a wealth of amazing resources to get to Emma, but what's your favorite, like if you if a top of mind resource that you can share with our audience today?

Well, I know you set me a boundary of one, but I'm going to break the boundary so I.

You can break the boundary.

So I might have to do three.So the first one, if you want really simple and you just want to get back to basics to not feel really overwhelmed, is this book by Ruthie Me Akinsete and it's the Men's Headspace Manual. But if you're a down to earth person like me, then you'll appreciate that it's, it is really practical and down to earth and very, very manageable.And I love a bit of ruby wax. And so how to be human.There's so much around empathy, but also the traps we can fall into with empathy and how to perhaps go more towards Compass and my third one just because. Because of the world that we do live in with the digital space. And she's a good friend and colleague of mine, so.Digital Boundaries by Petra Velzeboer. Because I don't think any of us can escape the world of AI Great books.

I'm excited to dig into them, but I would be making a terrible mistake if I don't add a fourth one. And this is the book that you're in the middle of working on.

Oh, thank you. Because I, I did forget momentarily. So I'm writing a book, it's called a Boundaries Toolkit for Messy Reality.And really it's just sharing this idea of role playing different roles. What are the traps that we fall into? This idea of messy reality, messy humans.And I'm really just building in loads of practical ideas and I do touch on the workplace mental health side as well.And yeah, and just in the same way that you're creating this podcast and no doubt that has been both a joyous and a pain in terms of writing this book. You know, you learn a lot about yourself. You learn a lot about your. Your passions and your topic, don't you?And you have to have boundaries, even when you're writing a book around boundaries.

Yeah, absolutely. It's a great exercise, right. To explore our own growth and boundaries and challenges when we go through a project like this.So we'll make sure we have all the resources in the show notes. I know there's a way for people to get notified when your book is ready, so we'll put that in the show notes as well.I'd like to just close with just a heartfelt gratitude, Emma. It's been such a pleasure getting to know you and to follow all the work that you're doing for normalizing the messy reality.I learned that from you, and I'm just so excited to be sharing this episode with our audience because I know that there's so many nuggets in here that's just going to be so helpful and also maybe relieving.I can imagine a number of people listening to this, and they're just their shoulders just go down a little bit and they feel like a weight has been lifted off their shoulders as they're figuring out boundaries in their next step. So thank you for taking the time and spending it with me today.

Thank you so much.And as I was learning, even attending something like this, we are more courageous than we think we are and that this is what we're trying to share with people, isn't it? So thank you so much, Karina. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you.