Bonus: Karina Schneider Guest on the So Frickin' Healthy podcast

When you come with a broken foot, then you can't walk and everyone's like, oh, let me sign your cast.

But when you come and say, I'm depressed, I'm burnt out, they're like, well, pull yourself together.

Hey, friends.

Welcome back to so Freaking Healthy, the show that serves up honest conversations about wellness without the guilt, the grind, or the green juice pressure.

I'm Megan McCrory, a health coach, a chemical engineer, and the official scientist co host here on the show.

And I'm Donna Levy Hoffman.

I am a health coach, a functional medicine nerd in a lover of everything avocado and deep chats.

I am the official hippie.

Today's episode is one we've been really looking forward to because we are talking about something that so many women go through but don't always feel safe saying out loud.

Burnout.

And specifically what it looks like to return to work after you've hit that burnout wall.

Yeah, and I'm not gonna lie, this one hits close to home.

I've recently been going through my own experience with burnout, and while I'll share more about it in an upcoming episode, today I get to be in the passenger seat.

So I'll be asking a lot of questions, nodding in solidarity, and probably saying same a lot.

Today we are joined by the amazing Karina Schneider.

Karina is an HR expert, mental health first aid instructor, and the host of her brand new podcast, Back after Burnout, which is launching July 15, 2025.

Karina has not only worked on the inside of corporate systems for years, but she's also seen the impact of burnout in others as well as having navigated her own personal burnout journey.

And now she helps career professionals, especially those on stress leave, to create a clear and compassionate roadmap back to work that doesn't land them back where they started.

Karina is super grounded.

She's practical and real about this stuff and I think you're going to love this conversation, whether you're back at work and barely holding it together or still trying to figure out what recovery even means.

This one is for you.

Hello, Karina, and welcome to the show.

Hi, Megan.

Hi, Dana.

Thank you for having me.

I'm really excited for the conversation we're going to have today.

Yes, me too.

And burnout is something we're learning as well.

As we chatted about, this means, or let's say is more aware in different parts of the world.

We are all in Switzerland and when someone says they're in burnout here, we all kind of know what that means.

However, I'm from the U.S.

donna lived a portion her life in the U.S.

and that word burnout might not mean to the American folks what it means to the Europeans.

So basically, I think before we get into anything else, let's take a look at understanding what burnout is.

And is someone just burned out or am I just super tired?

Like what is the difference?

And can maybe you could start there for sure.

And I think it's a really great place to start to get some common understanding around burnout.

I mean, there has been quite some research around burnout since the 70s.

So while it might feel like it's been part of our day to day conversations in the last couple of years.

Couple of years, it's not new.

But yes, you're right, Megan, that in the way that burnout has been talked about, we often hear in casual conversations, I feel burnt out.

But then if you really ask the questions, it might mean that the person is just going through a particularly stressful time or feeling particularly tired based on recent events.

So I think just being able to understand when is it something you need to go see a doctor for versus what is a human normal experience is really important.

I think what's also maybe helpful to understand is that burnout is not a diagnosed condition.

So people who have been through burnout might have gone to their doctors, they might have gotten their six certificates, but it's not diagnosed as such.

I know in my case it was chronic stress.

I had weeks and months off work.

But you don't see that as a diagnosed condition.

And that's probably why people tend to use it in many different contexts.

And then we can dive deeper in terms of what's really different between just feeling tired and stressed to knowing that this is actually burnout.

Not sure if that makes sense to start with.

Yeah, it does.

I was going to ask also, do you think that burnout is actually officially also a spectrum?

Absolutely, I would.

In my experience and also based on the research I've done, it's not like I'm burnt out today and I wasn't yesterday, or that I've gone through a week and I develop burnout.

It's actually a process and a cycle that people go through and people will catch it at different points in time.

So I've heard individuals talk about their burnout as a moment of collapse, for instance.

And I've heard others talk about burnout as I've just had really bad sleep and feeling really fatigued and I'm having digestive issues and they're able to call it earlier, but both could be representing burnout.

It's just where in the process or in the cycle we were able to catch it from.

And ideally we catch it earlier than later because the later you are in your cycle of burnout, the tougher it is to bounce back.

Yeah.

So, Karina, you just started to talk a little bit about some of the signs and symptoms of, you know, like an event versus kind of like a crop, like an acute event versus like a chronic period of time.

Could you go into some more of.

And I also find it interesting.

Sorry.

Yeah, now I'm not going to finish my sentences because I have ADHD and I've already finished it in my head.

I have like 15 things to ask you all at once.

So the first thing, let me go.

Back one question at a time.

So.

Yes.

So, Karina, you just started talking about some of the signs and symptoms, and you also said that it's not like a recognized medical condition, burnout, as we say with air quotes.

Is it treated like a physical ailment, mental health ailment?

Is it a combined thing?

Where does it fall between when you're talking to a physician?

Yeah, great question.

And I think this is where we wonder, when we look at the data, how much burnout is correctly reported or not.

Right.

If it's even reported.

So because the presenting symptoms will pretty much determine how a doctor would approach your recovery process.

What I would say, why this is really largely considered a mental health concern with physical aspects to it, and that differentiates it from just normal stress or tiredness, is there's a lot of emotional detachment and potentially even early signs of depressive symptoms that come with burnout.

People even would say burnout is a crisis of identity and meaning as much as it starts from chronic stress.

A lot of people who burn out talk about a misalignment with their values or not really knowing who they are anymore when they go through significant life transitions.

And yes, we're stressed because there are more demands on us.

There's a lot of things we need to do and we feel we need to accomplish.

And yet there's a crisis going on internally as well.

And so most people who experience burnout will end up wanting to speak to a therapist or a counselor or a psychologist.

But we, of course, in the Swiss system, we always start with our general practitioners who might also look at some of the physical symptoms and also address that.

So my guidance to people who ask me, well, what do I tell my doctors?

Tell them everything.

Tell them the physical, tell Them the emotional, tell them the mood if there's any changes in your mood, because the more holistic you can approach your recovery, the higher the chances that you feel better over time and your recovery is actually faster and you don't relapse.

I think there's a lot of different ways that people experience burnout, and so there's not one single check checklist you can go through.

And that's the same for everyone, right?

And so I think the more clear and specific we are about how we're experiencing it, the higher the chances we get the help we really need.

It's interesting because I also realized for myself that my latest burnout, which has been going on for a few years now, unfortunately is not the first.

And I never categorized it as such because I also suffer from depression.

So things usually are connected to depression for me.

But then just understanding it more and going through it so severely this time makes me understand that, oh, that time in my life, that was definitely a burnout.

That time in my life that was definitely a burnout.

And that it gets worse and worse every time you go through it, especially if you don't treat it.

Donna, just a second.

When, when you're.

Because we've talked about depression before on the show and we've also talked about your burnout a bit, but we're going to get into that more into another episode where we really dive into it.

But from your perspective and also Karina, because you guys have both been in there, what is the difference between being in a chronically depressed state and a burnout state?

Are those things technically the same in just different words like tomato, tomahto or.

Or are there some distinguishing features between being depressed and being burnt out?

I can tell you my experience and then I would love to hear what Karina has to say.

My experience is that burnout is depression on steroids.

It's.

It makes the depression much worse.

And it's also when I'm depressed again, it's.

I've been dealing with depression since I was a teen.

So depression for me is something that I kind of.

I can still some what function.

Whereas burnout is like depressed and I cannot get off the sofa.

I cannot motivate myself to.

To do certain things that are really simple daily tasks.

And this is again the severe burnout.

I think before it was maybe like just I can't do this and somehow kind of dragging myself through it or maybe taking a little bit of a break, but obviously not enough to fully heal.

Whereas a full blown burnout for me Is like, wow.

And I personally feel like it really.

And my husband says the same.

It really changed me.

Like, it really, really changed me to a point where going through the healing process is still not bringing the old Donna back, basically.

Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, Dan.

And I think it's also important for us to understand that a lot of mental health challenges have overlaps.

Right.

And so even when we do mental health first aid programs, we always say it's important to understand signs and symptoms, but it's not our job to diagnose what it is.

But we understand things can coexist in the burnout cycle, at least based on the early research, depression usually comes towards the end of the cycle.

So one of the differences.

How does the condition develop?

Burnout starts with stress.

Depression can start from other factors and other reasons, not necessarily only stress.

But the way burnout is talked about today is the assumption is somebody has been going through a chronic level of stress for a prolonged period of time that hasn't been managed.

And then we go on to develop additional symptoms, including depressive symptoms as well.

So there are overlaps, but the risk factors might be different.

The way the symptoms show up might be different.

And of course, even what treatments might be at play could also be different.

But, yes, you will find overlaps in the experience as well.

In my case, it was clearly a case of stress and years and years of patterns that were helpful to my success professionally.

But as soon as I became a parent, and then at the same time that Covid was hitting, and then I was facing the prospect of a job loss, all at the same time, the patterns that made me successful for many years just stopped serving me well.

So I did go through mild depressive symptoms, but I wasn't diagnosed with depression, but it was a clear case of burnout.

So that's.

There are different ways that this can play out with people.

And again, we always suggest, talk to your doctor, talk to someone you trust, and start there.

Good.

So I think we're on a good track of understanding what it means.

And I worked for a long time in the States before I moved to Switzerland.

Looking back, I can probably see people who were burnt out.

And in the US it's considered a weakness to have a mental health issue.

Maybe now it's different.

I mean, that was 15, 20 years ago.

But at the time, you could see people had a.

Were having a burnout, but they weren't allowing themselves to express it.

They might quit, they might blow up at work, they might self destruct.

So what is the trajectory or path that someone takes to the point where they're allowing themselves to get help and we're talking from a corporate environment to stop working.

I think things are a little different for someone like Donna who's not in a corporate environment, but also stress, family stress in a certain way.

So I, I feel like those are two different types or let's say different pathways for burnout.

But let's stick with the corporate.

Can you explain, like what happens?

Like what, what, what triggers someone to say I can't do this anymore?

Is it fetal position on the couch and their husband or wife calls into the office and says they're done?

Yeah, sometimes.

And it's tougher in the corporate environment because there's an assumption that yes, it's stressful and we just have to keep up with it.

And a lot of high achievers driven professionals who are at higher risk of burnout will say, I just need to keep up because this is what we do and this is who I am.

And so the idea of saying I can't do this anymore can be really difficult.

And that's why when individuals from the corporate environment burn out, it's usually later in the process where literally they've collapsed, they, they can't get out of bed.

In my case, it was a panic attack.

I was coming off a two week summer holiday.

I checked my phone for what was waiting for me the next day and I just, I couldn't, I had to take my phone aside.

I had an emotional breakdown and I just said I can't go back to work.

So I think what that end point looks like or that trigger for asking for help will look different for different people.

But it definitely is this almost impossibility of showing up again and I can't do it anymore kind of statement that comes out of people.

If people are able to catch it earlier, normally they will probably recognize that they've been feeling sick a lot more or they're not showing up at work because of dread and so they're calling in sick more often or they're making more mistakes at work or they're not able to concentrate.

And they're probably then thinking, I might need to talk to someone about all of this is unusual behavior.

But I have to say it takes a lot for someone in the corporate environment even today to say can't show up anymore because it is perceived as a weakness.

It's an individual issue and you need to go fix it.

And I find that, you know, with burnout, it's kind of similar with depression.

It's not, you're not showing it physically.

And so it's a lot harder to get the empathy from your surrounding when you're not.

When you come with a broken foot, then you can't walk and everyone's like, oh, let me sign your cast.

But when you come and say, I'm depressed, I'm burnt out, they're like, well, hold yourself together.

Right.

So, and just to quickly reiterate, because we are talking about the work world, but I find that also a lot of women even stay at home moms, and a lot of our listeners are women will experience burnout for certain.

For any reason, really.

Right.

And there you can't call in sync.

Yeah.

Unfortunately, you can't call in sync.

So you're kind of stuck with what you can handle.

And if you can have support from your loved ones or you have financial means to get external support, that's great.

But some people don't even have that, which makes it hard.

It does.

And I'm so glad you mentioned it, Dana, because I'm very curious, if we were to fast forward in five years how the research will talk about burnout.

Because today the definition is it assumes you're in a workplace setting.

Right.

But you think about stay at home parents, you think about people who are running NGOs or volunteer organizations or who are doing vocational work or full time caregiving work.

I wouldn't go as far as to say, well, burnout excludes them.

I don't personally believe that, but that's my personal belief.

But I'm really curious, once we continue to learn more about this, how we might be a little bit more inclusive in recognizing that it kind of doesn't matter.

Everybody's working in some shape or form and that makes anyone susceptible to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I definitely agree that we need to talk about work as in things that take our energy and time.

Right.

Not a corporate job or self employed people or parents even.

I mean, there are people like you mentioned that could be full in on supporting volunteer organizations.

They're not getting paid.

It's still work because they're still putting their energy and time into something, hopefully into something that they enjoy.

But it's still based on the person's ability to either manage their inner and outer expectations that the world has on them.

It tells you again how they might react to more stressful situations.

I don't know, maybe you've both heard of Gretchen Rubin.

I hope so because she's a fabulous writer about happiness.

And one of the things I love that I've taken away from listening to her stuff is the four tendencies and how people react to inner and outer expectations.

And she clearly talks about the people who always meet outer expectations before inner expectations.

And the word now is escaping me.

It starts with an O.

Obliger.

Yes.

And these obligers, because they are constantly putting outer expectations before their inner desires, have a tendency to burn out more.

The managers love them because they do everything they say.

Right, Right.

But they're also the ones that will quit spontaneously or burn out versus someone who is an upholder, where they.

They say, no, I need to do the stuff I need to do first for me, and then I'm gonna take care of everybody else.

But those people are the 10 percenters, the type A's where they get everything done.

And somehow we all like how.

How are they doing this?

So I think definitely understanding how you are will also help understand your.

Your burnout journey.

And if you know that you're this type of person, then when you are on the road to recovery, then you can better understand how you need to potentially change your interaction with the outside world.

You know, we always say, stop saying yes to everything, say no every once in a while.

But it's very hard for people who are obligers to do that unless they know that that is their normal go to.

And that is part of the thing that's bringing them to a burnout state.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

I think you hit it, Megan.

And this is why.

Going back to the earlier question we had about where does this fall in the spectrum of physical condition and mental health condition?

While a lot of the triggers of burnout start with stress, it is, in the end an opportunity to revisit who we want to be and how we want to show up and how do we want to interact with the environment around us.

So it's very much also an opportunity for an identity transformation.

And that's what I've seen in the work that I've done, that this is not just about setting better boundaries.

It's going back to who do I want to be and what's the type of life I actually want to live from now on.

Yeah.

Which is sometimes not easy to bring yourself to do while you're in burnout.

We've talked now about burnout, and hopefully this conversation will help some people realize that they've been in burnout or has had a burnout in the past.

So let's assume that they understand that they are in some kind of burnout and they take time off of work whatever that means.

But eventually they want to go or need to go back to work.

And this return to work journey is really where you focus most of your efforts.

So what do those kind of early weeks or months look like when someone starts to even think about going back to work?

Yeah, it's a great question.

And some people will be on absence and will not stop thinking about work because it's loaded with guilt of being away, guilt of work not being done.

So this is whether you're self employed or employed.

Right.

There's work that needs to be done and feel guilty for not being able to keep up, fear of losing your job.

Like we know of people who just get terminated because they've been on extended sick leave.

So the thinking process of returning to work tends to be loaded with really difficult emotions of fear, guilt, should I should go back, I don't deserve this time.

I didn't go through an accident, I don't have cancer, so why do I need seven months off?

And it comes at the same time that they're feeling like they need to go back to work.

The interesting thing is they're often also coming with a depleted sense of confidence and belief in themselves that they can do it again.

So it's a very difficult experience and tension to hold of, I need to go back, but do I?

Can I really do this?

And what if it happens again?

And that can feel really difficult.

At the same time, they think, when is this recovery going to be done so that I can go back to work?

Thinking that there's an end date to recovery and there isn't really.

And so those are the first types of conversations or experiences that people will have at the very idea of going back to work.

And some of them will panic at the very idea of it.

Just the imagining it creates a very intense emotion.

So what do you recommend that people do when they first go into the workforce again?

I'll take a step back in answering that question and one of the messages I repeat over and over again.

And it's my belief that the return to work process is also part of your recovery process.

So there's an overlap, and I think it should be an overlap because work is important to our identity.

You can't fully separate recovery from work.

If you think of physiotherapy, after maybe hurting a limb of yours, you start walking, even if you're not fully healed right?

It's.

You have to rebuild those muscles and it needs to be done in a safe, supported way.

It has to be intentional.

So I think of Return to work the same way.

Assuming, of course, if you're employed, you have a supportive work environment that will allow for that overlap to happen, because it could work and it might not work.

We don't know.

And so when people start thinking about it and where do we start or how do we begin thinking about this, I remind them of that.

This doesn't mean your recovery is done, because we don't know what that fully looks like and what 100% recovery actually really means.

So think of this process as a way to test out what you've learned.

Check if you've actually established new and healthier patterns of behavior that will serve you well when you go back to work.

So there's a lot of testing and experimenting, and sometimes it goes really, really well.

And sometimes it's like, oh, that didn't work.

Let me try that again.

Even managing energy, remember, people who are on sick leave are away from their normal routine for months.

So to go back to work into a routine, structured environment can be a shock to the system.

And we need a little bit of time for our minds and bodies to get used to that again.

So for me, the conversation of return to work starts with, let's understand that this doesn't mean your recovery is done and you're not allowed to feel unwell.

And what are the conditions that need to exist so that this becomes a successful transition?

And then we look at other strategies that we can run through as well.

But I think that the thinking has to start from there, too.

Okay, so it sounds like we kind of skipped on an important step, which maybe we won't go too detail into.

But there is, of course, from the moment that we're, let's say, diagnosed or understand that we have burnouts to the moment that we go back to work.

There's also this process of working with psychiatrist, psychologists, burnout experts, something that can help you to build up these tools that can help you to go back into the life and workforce and everything like that.

Absolutely.

And I think going back to something that we already said earlier, like understanding where your burnout came from and answering the question for yourself, well, what's going to be different this time around?

And when you have an understanding of that, then it's easier to think of the tactics and the strategies to do it.

But if we can't answer the question of what's going to be different this time, I would dare say take a bit more time, and maybe that's still some work that needs to be done before going back in there, understandably, Though if you're self employed or if you're not paid, I mean, it's harder of course to take the time.

But I'd like to believe that there are ways to make sure we honor that recovery process and also start to get productive again in a way that feels safe and healthy.

So good.

I'm so.

Yeah, I opened the whole episode with.

This is something we just don't talk about very often.

I mean, I've known three or four women that have had burnout and each one kind of approached this a different way.

And I know again, we're kind of going backwards a little bit.

But like, when you're in a corporate environment, you're not necessarily thinking about the ramifications of your career when you're in a state like this.

However, I know people who have basically just quit without talking to a lawyer first or anything else, which then adds further stress because now they've put themselves into a financial pickle.

So I guess for those of us who know someone or I mean, just so we all get the general knowledge, and this will be of course different across different countries, what's the proper way for someone to go first to their.

What's their steps that they need to take?

Do they go to the doctor first, then get the diagnosis and then go to their lawyer and say, how do I do that?

I mean, it feels very much like you're almost attacking the company.

That's how I would feel like here the company has put me in this position and now here I'm going to go on sick leave for.

For an indefinite period of time.

And by the way, you need to pay for it.

And of course the company is always thinking in their best interests, not your best interests.

The company is protecting themselves financially.

So could you walk through a little bit of that?

Yeah.

I think we have to differentiate what might be a case because of a highly toxic environment.

And the definition of that can vary, so that's relative.

But versus it was a difficult time.

And it's always a combination of factors.

Right.

For me, it's really hard to say burnout is either the company's fault or the individual's fault.

It's the interaction of experiences and patterns that create the possibility of somebody developing burnout or other mental health conditions.

So my advice always to employees is understand your employment contract and your absence policies.

We never do because we never think we need them.

Right.

But at some point we will.

So understand what you're entitled to because you're entitled to it by contract.

And so I'm Very careful about saying, quit your job and then go get help, because that doesn't really help the sense of security and stability that people will have.

If job loss is at the end point of this, then so be it.

Right?

But in the moment that somebody is struggling, whether it's for your physical health or your mental health, get the benefits you deserve in the form of whatever sick leave policies are in place and focus on the recovery first.

I think the legal aspects, I think that can be rather complicated because it depends, again, on the nature of the relationship between the employee and the employer.

Most cases I've dealt with, we never needed to get legalities involved because you kind of figure out either you're back in your employer and you're okay with it, or you find a way to exit with grace and without burning bridges.

Right.

But the legalities might come through.

If a person has felt unfairly treated, if they feel like they've been discriminated and harassed, and that opens up a whole other conversation.

Right.

But I would say if you're working in an environment that has sick leave policies, understand that use it because you're entitled to use it, and then work from there.

And then you'll be accompanied by doctors and other professionals who can then help navigate the next steps from there.

Right, exactly.

No, but that sets us up then for the next section where we want to talk about how you set boundaries and how you do advocate for yourself.

So again, now skipping again forward a little bit.

The person has now had that time to work through the burnout, whatever that means in each case, and.

And they're going back to work.

So how do they renegotiate what the expectations are when they go back to work without feeling like their performance review is going to be affected, that they're letting their teammates down because they can only come back 50%?

All of those aspects, how do they negotiate that with their selves and also with their managers?

I think you use the keyword, which is self, because before you can negotiate effectively with others, you need to be clear about the story you are telling yourself about your return to work.

So if you're going in thinking, I've been away too long now, my teammates are mad at me because I left work over and I need to prove myself again.

It's going to be really, really hard.

And so I always would recommend sit with yourself.

And the story you tell yourself about your return to work and what you're allowing yourself to ask for and feel good in that, hey, anybody can have this experience.

And this is my Experience and I'm allowing myself the opportunity to easefully go back to work.

And so some of the things that we could negotiate, whether, and I say the same, whether you're self employed or employed, is how much time are you willing to put into work.

Like the assumption of having to go back.

If you are working 100% and you go back immediately, 100% might not work.

I can't generalize, but it usually doesn't work.

So thinking about, well, how much time am I willing to give myself, how much flexibility am I willing to give myself, what are the things I want to do and what are the things I'm going to park for now and say I can't do it.

And the more clear we are with ourselves, the easier it is to then have the conversation with the manager.

And the way I encourage people to think about the conversation with their manager is this is not me versus you conversation, this is a conversation of mutual benefit.

We both want this job done.

I want to get this job done.

You want me to come back, but what are the conditions for it to work again?

Assuming there's a supportive environment that allows for such a conversation to happen, then we can think about the pacing.

What's the percentage, what's the work?

Then how do we regularly check in every month or so to see, okay, are we ready to increase and build that back up again?

What often helps the individuals is that they often have the support of their doctors and their healthcare professionals to say, yes, we can confirm that we recommend this person come back at this capacity or to avoid such types of tasks.

Right.

So they're not on their own doing this, but the story they tell themselves will make the difference between how much they can advocate for themselves or not.

Yeah.

And I don't know if you noticed this, but I realize with quite a few of my clients there's this slippery slope of saying maybe even trying to avoid burnout by cutting down on percentage at work or coming back in a certain capacity.

And I find that with some companies, not generalizing, but with some companies you will then get paid less and work less hours, but the expectation of the workload is going to stay the same.

And so I love that you said not only do we need to discuss how much percent wise do I come back to work, but also what is the workload that I'm taking on?

Because I think that is super important.

There's too many people out there going back 50% and are still expected 100%, but they're not getting paid for the work that They've done.

They burn out again very quickly.

Absolutely.

And I would dare say that the conversation about the work is much more important than the number.

Right.

The number is a number that represents, hey, we expect you to not put in more hours than you are actually able to.

You can go in at 20%.

But if your experience is so difficult in that 20%, what outcome do we actually expect?

Right.

So the percentages are important, don't get me wrong, but it's much more important about what's being done in that time that can actually feel good for the person and can feel good for the team and the organization that they're going back to.

To.

Yeah.

So, dear listeners, if any of you have been feeling seen, or let's say maybe things are clicking in your brain that you're like, oh, wait, maybe I have had a burnout or maybe I am in this burnout, we want to make sure that you get the support you need.

So always reach out to your healthcare professionals.

However, if you are just interested and you want to know more, Karina is launching her new show and she's going to dive into a lot more of these topics.

Karina, can you just tell us a little bit about what your show called Back After Burnout?

Who is it for and what can your listeners expect?

Yeah, thank you.

I'm really excited to get the chance to put something out into the world about returning to work.

So who is it for?

It's really for people who are worried about their mental health.

They've taken some time off.

They're starting to think about, okay, what's next for me?

Regardless of what form work takes or even if you're not working right, if you just want to get back into life in the way it used to be, I trust you will find what we talk about in this podcast really, really helpful.

I think this particular transition, people always say, oh, that's such a narrow focus.

It's really narrow precisely because it's not talked about.

We don't fully understand what happens through recovery and return to work.

And so I wanted to have a space to be able to talk about not just the health side of things, but really what personal transformations happen when people return to work and how can they do that in a way that feels good, that they can feel confident that they can feel safe.

And so we'll talk about things like what productivity and how to deal with awkward conversations with your teammates who start asking you about burnout, but also deeper things like identity and self belief.

So I'm really excited about that.

And I hope it will be helpful to our listeners.

Listeners.

Sounds amazing.

Excellent.

So if this conversation really hit home, I know I'm also thinking like, oh, wait, I think I probably also had a burnout at some point, but I didn't recognize that.

I didn't think it was serious enough to be called a burnout.

But looking backwards, maybe this was my version of a burnout.

So if you've been running on empty, if you're wondering how to actually go through this process, this journey, make sure you take some breaths.

Breath work is always, always important.

And just know that you don't have to do this alone.

There are a lot of resources and people out there to help you.

Yeah, totally.

And as someone who's been in it and honestly, still finding my way out of this, just hearing that other people have been through this does make a huge difference to me.

So please don't push these feelings aside.

You do deserve the support.

So please go ahead and get that support that you need.

Yeah, Donna, you were really good about telling your core people, like, you made a WhatsApp group.

And we're like, this is the help Donna chat.

And I.

I was.

I was so proud of you.

I'm like, way to go, Donna.

Way to just really ask for help and tell people, this is where I'm gonna ask for help.

This is the channel that I can manage during this time.

So if you really want more support and guidance and how to do this return to work journey, just make sure you go.

Subscribe to Karina's new podcast, Back After Burnout.

The trailer is available now, so you can already subscribe, and the first full episode will drop on the 15th.

However, if you're listening to this in the future, you don't have to wait.

You can go now.

Every episode is packed with something actionable and super doable.

So if you're looking for clarity or just need to know that you're not alone in this, go subscribe to Back after burnout.

It's out July 15, and trust us, you'll want this podcast in your library.

We'll put the link in our show notes just to make sure you can't miss it.

And like always, podcasts are best shared with the people that you love.

So if you know somebody who would like this episode, or you know somebody who would enjoy or get value out of Karina's episodes, make sure you share it, because sharing is caring, and you're awesome when you share things with friends.

And, Karina, we just want to thank you again for being here.

Today.

Your conversation was so insightful.

We can feel the compassion that you have for your people and clients.

And just this in general, like you said, this very niche topic.

I can feel that you're very compassionate and caring about this type of position that people are in.

And the fact that you've had a lot of practical, practical wisdom is exactly what people need in this type of topic, which is just not talked about.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

It means a lot to me and I'm very grateful for the chance that we could talk about this today.

Yeah, seriously.

Also wanted to thank you.

My neck hurts from nodding all the time.

So, yeah, I know that a lot of listeners are going to feel seen and supported, but by what you have shared with us today, thanks so much.

And as always, thank you for spending time with us here on the Sofrick and Healthy podcast.

Whether you're navigating burnout or just figuring out what healthy looks like for you, we're so glad that you joined us.

We'll see you next time with the same awesome vibe that we give you, but with a new topic.

So take care of yourself.

Bye, everyone.

Bye.