On Funding African Female Entrepreneurs and Innovators - A Conversation with Pauline Koelbl

Claire Murigande00:00:00

Foreign Hi everyone and welcome to Narratives of Purpose podcast, a place where we discuss how ordinary people are making extraordinary social impact. My name is Claire Marie Gandhi and I am your host on this show. My guest on this episode is Pauline Koelbel.Pauline is an innovation expert in developing and emerging markets. Today we will speak about female empowerment, entrepreneurship, and of course, innovation on the African continent.I really look forward to share this discussion with you. Hi Pauline, welcome to the podcast.

Pauline Koelbel00:00:48

Hi, Claire, it's great to be here.

Claire Murigande00:00:51

Thank you for accepting my invitation. I'm really happy and very excited to have this conversation with you today.So before we dive into the discussion, let me share with our listeners a bit of your background. And I have to say, it's a difficult task because your background is so impressive.So I hope that I will make the right selection here and feel free to add in any of the missing point that I would have probably left out. You are graduates from the Institute of Development Studies. You hold a Master in Development and Poverty.You are also a graduate from the Harvard University, the John F. Kennedy School of Government. You followed an executive education on innovation for Economic Development there.From your professional background, you worked for almost eight years at the Africa Innovation foundation as Director for the Innovation Prize for Africa and as Managing Director for the foundation. You are also a co founder of PROA and PROA stands for Professional Women of African Heritage.And most recently, you founded AFRI Prospect and SHE Equity. So we will be speaking about that a bit later in the conversation.You are also a member of the board of directors and board of advisors of various companies.And finally, you are international public speaker on topics related to sustainable development in Africa, but also innovation, entrepreneurship, inclusiveness, women and youth empowerment. Does that sound like a thorough overview of your profile and your experience?

Pauline Koelbel00:02:31

Sure, Claire. Thank you. Just, if I was to introduce myself, I would just say I'm a woman with a purpose and passion to make a difference in this world.I think the race is, you know, everyone has a list of things they have done.

Claire Murigande00:02:46

Yeah, that's a great way to sum it up in very short words. Let's start and dive in with my very, very first question. Where does your passion for innovation come from?

Pauline Koelbel00:02:56

Actually, to be quite honest with you, I feel like innovation found me and then I got converted. So you probably want to know how.When I joined aif, the African Innovation Foundation, I did not know much about innovation and especially the innovation with the connection with Africa. Of course, I knew a bit about the pyramids in Egypt.I have heard about the Genne Mosque and Itumbuktu Inmaidi to just name a few of most African landmarks which demonstrate African ingenuity. But I really didn't know much beyond that.So I had to really learn very quickly when the founder of AIF offered me the job to catalyze innovation across Africa. And I took this as my challenge because I don't like to disappoint. And there was a lot of trust placed in me.Somehow the founder of AIF believed that I was the right person to take on this mission. So I did what I can. I took some courses, but also I started talking to people, identifying the enablers, the influencers in this space.And then I really got to appreciate, you know, what innovation is about, what it can do. And most of us, we discover how Africa has been innovative since a long time ago.But as you and I know, we never learned those things in school when we were growing up. I never learned about innovation in Rwanda or any other places. So this was really good discovery.And having this chance to travel across Africa, like from really Cape Town to Cairo, different countries in sub Saharan Africa, interacting with the people actually who see problems, and instead of complaining about the problem, actually they create solutions. And then once they have solutions, they see how can they take them to customers. So actually people can benefit from those solutions.So basically, during this journey of me discovering innovation, having a mission to catalyze innovation across Africa, I became a champion because I really believed what I saw. I believed what potential innovation has for any country, any continent.And also having spent a lot of time outside of African continent, reminded me that none of the countries, whether it's Switzerland or other countries that I've lived in, us, uk, France, have ever developed without investing in homegrown innovations. So I started actually questioning, why don't we see this in our own continent? And I made it a mission to basically use my voice.Any tools I have in the aif, I had a tool.I have cash to give to the best innovators, but also I had a platform to use to demonstrate African ingenuity, not just by talking, but actually showcasing what Africans are creating to solve African challenges, but also how those solutions are very important for the rest of the continent.

Claire Murigande00:06:25

You mentioned that before aif, you were not really familiar with innovation, more specifically innovation on the African continent, but you had already lived in Africa.What was your experience, I would say, once you started working with the foundation, first of all, how many countries were you, did you ever live in before you worked at the foundation? And how many countries did you visit?

Pauline Koelbel00:06:48

Claire? Those are a lot of questions. So feel free to remind me if I forget any one of those. So I went to AIF actually from the un.I was working for WCHO in Geneva. Totally different type of organizations, different mindsets.AIF was small and nimble, talking innovation, entrepreneurship, wto, we're talking about convening, trying to get policies in the right places. So basically this was totally different. And even because I studied poverty and development, we didn't really discuss innovation.The journey for me was also questioning why whenever it came to a discussion about Africa, the word innovation never been associated with Africa. Just from the conversation I have had, it's not like I didn't know the word innovation, so to speak.I just didn't know what it means and the potential innovation holds for any country or anyone, so to speak, any community, any society.And also the fact that as Africans actually we were, you know, somehow were educated or brought up in a way that we didn't get to learn all the things that our ancestors have created, which basically growing up in Rwanda and then living during the war, all I knew is basically with school, you get a job and you become a bureaucrat, you have a family and then you, you are happy ever after, right? But no, I have never, never discuss innovation. So this was for me a very kind of, you know, awakening.I remember my first assignment was to actually go to Ethiopia and meet with the people at the UN Commission, Economic Commission for Africa, because they were our partners. And when I was getting ready to go, I started, you know, doing research to see innovation in Africa.And I discovered so many things that Africans have innovated, you know, the whole thinking that the whole civilization started in Africa. This was a new world to me. So I decided to not just make it, you know, the beginning, but make it my life.So now in terms of where, which country I lived in before leaving Africa, I lived, I was born and raised in Rwanda. And then when I lived, I lived in Kenya and the DRC Congo and then Senegal.And then when I left, I went to the us so when I came to Europe, I actually came to study in the UK on the Fulbright scholarship. And then when I finished, I got another Fulbright to work at UNESCO in Paris. So from the UNESCO I was traveling to different countries.I got to visit different countries in Asia. And then when I wh the same, I was able to visit different countries. But then when I joined aif, really the mandate was focus on Africa. So I visited.I don't know, I haven't really counted them, but I know for sure. More than 20 countries. And I should have counted them. Actually I have. I collect masks.If I go and count them, I will be able to tell you how many countries I visited in Africa. Did I answer all your questions?

Claire Murigande00:10:19

Yes, absolutely.I just wanted to have a sense of how it evolved also with you, with you personally in the journey from already being born and raised in Africa, but also living outside of Africa and then, you know, coming back with this other mission, I would say just to see how that experience had resonated with you.

Pauline Koelbel00:10:38

But maybe if I may add, just the travel for me during the work I did at aif, they were also very different because I was traveling to actually meet with innovators who are actually working from garage, like in Kenya, they call them Juakari. Like people are using what they collect from whatever trash to make a solution. They need a tool, they need to use action.Meeting with scientists sitting in fancy labs in South Africa or Morocco or Egypt, who basically have a first class labs as you find here in Switzerland, you find in the US or any other country in Europe, but also getting to engage with policymakers to the level of presidents.This really gave me like a sense of humility, but also kind of feeling grateful because I got to engage with actually people who form an ecosystem of innovation because we need a policy makers, you need actually the doer innovators, you need academia and you need a civil society to actually take invention to innovation into the market. So my travel was not just fancy, like, hey, let's go another nice city, have fun.It was really a discovery engagement, but also a certain level of advocacy about innovation and what can do for transforming Africa.

Claire Murigande00:11:59

Yes, I hear that it's really like a holistic approach, right, where you engage with every stakeholder, is that correct?

Pauline Koelbel00:12:06

Exactly.And that was really what I think was unique about this job because the previous job you had your own target audience or stakeholder, as if things happen in silos. So with innovation we understood it's all about ecosystem.

Claire Murigande00:12:21

And that brings me actually to the next point I wanted to address. You're also a public speaker on different topics and I just want to bring all these words together.Innovation, entrepreneurship, youth empowerment, female empowerment, inclusiveness. So how are all these related for you and how do you make them work or bring them together in your work?

Pauline Koelbel00:12:45

So actually I didn't choose this focus randomly. It just actually they feed to each other. They're very connected. So starting with innovation. So innovation is a tool to solve challenge, right?To solve many challenges.You know, you start by creating, inventing, and then you have an invention and then you transform into a solution that actually can be tested on a market. So when you create, when you have an innovation, once you manage to commercialize your innovation, you create new opportunities, including jobs.And also like today we are in the middle of COVID 19, right? I think you have had, you know, there's two new vaccine that are coming up. We won't have those vaccines if we didn't have innovators.You know, just, you can take few minutes and think about it. We could still be thinking about how many times we're gonna be locked in.Like if we were not recording this today, maybe next year we could just be sitting face to face where we can actually record this face to face. Can you imagine this is possible because innovators can do this.So now they have a solution, they're gonna bring it to solve Covid while they're doing this, they're gonna make money. They're gonna be probably creating, they're creating hope for us.I' I feel like 2021 will be really amazing because of this hope brought by those vaccines. And most importantly, most of the innovation also actually tend to reduce inequalities between people.So I don't know if you've heard of social innovations. So those are kind of innovations that really trying to solve social challenges.And personally I argue most of the impact for innovations one way or another they touch on solving social problems.It might be not social in a sense of the way people think about anything social, but more like again, if you think about the pandemic we have, this is a social problem, I think because we are all societies are affected by this problem.So if you think then from that perspective of how innovation create job, create hope, reducing equality between people, you can see how this can lead to inclusive and sustainable growth. You know, so today many, while many people are getting poor, there are quite few people are getting richer and richer.And I believe innovation is one of those tools that we can actually use to reduce that inequality. So now jumping to entrepreneurship.So usually people talk about invention, innovation and the difference between invention and innovation, their invention, you will have created something, but no one, no, no, no customers has tested it or used it or bought it. To actually take your innovation to the market, you need someone with a different skill set and that's an entrepreneur.So that's where entrepreneurship comes in. So which basically allow to commercialize the innovation.So in fact, without entrepreneurs, we will only remain with invention, meaning we're going to have product services patent somewhere that have no bearing on our lives. But thanks to entrepreneurs, they take that really good innovation, they package them and then they take it to the market.They listen to the market, they get customer feedback, they go back and give a feedback to the inventor so they can fine tune in a way that when then finally the innovation hits the market at the final stage, it kind of resolved the market needs, it responds to solve the problem. But also the customers are ready to pay, because also someone has to pay. So you can sustain at the circle of innovating and then who innovates? Right?So of course right now you have a different age group innovating. But if you think about the fact that innovation is, is also about the future. So you need to have empowered youth.Because if the youth, the younger people are not embarrassing innovation, they have no tool, they are, you know, struggling, then it means at some point you're going to run out of human capital that you need to actually sustain this circle of innovation entrepreneurship. So you can argue, I'm sure because you're doing stuff in a digital technology, you can argue that, yeah.But today a lot of things are done by robots, you know, and if you do that, I will tell you, actually the first robot was made by human, you know, so if we also don't want robots to take over, we actually have all incentive to make sure that we're empowering our youth so they continue to actually be the one giving orders to robots and creating robots that work for humanity, not the other way around.So again, having empowered the youth, for me it means that the human power will continue to innovate and create more opportunity for future generation. And the last, I mean, in terms of female empowerment, you know, I'm gonna throw out the statistic here.You probably heard about the fact that the women represent more than 50% of world population and they raised the remaining 50%. So I will just pause there and what do you think about this?

Claire Murigande00:18:23

It makes awesome sense to me.

Pauline Koelbel00:18:25

Exactly. So if you take this in perspective, don't you think it makes sense logically that we actually empower women?Because if we empower women, we're empowering the 50% of our people, but also we're empowering 50% of people who have the power to influence the remaining 50%. So then you wonder, why are we not doing this? You know, we are logical people, but somehow we're not doing this.And there are so many other statistics that show how the benefit of empowering women tricks down and benefit everyone.Another number, and I will stop there on numbers, is that women reinvest about 90% of their revenue in the sector activity that benefits their family and societies. And this comparing to about 40% for men. Right.But the funding gap between, when it comes to businesses, between a man, even the promotion and women, it's the other way around. So something is wrong. Right. We need to fix it somehow. But anyway, so I think I've made my case.

Claire Murigande00:19:35

Absolutely. And this is like the perfect, I would say segue on the next topic I wanted to address with you.When you're mentioning before that innovation is finding a solution to a problem, you made it really clear that this is a problem. So is your new venture addressing this problem that you uncovered?

Pauline Koelbel00:19:55

Exactly, exactly. So AFRI Prospect basically connects African innovators with global markets and mobilizing multimoney for impact for female led businesses.And the problem I wanted to address here is you have a lot of incubation and accelerators in Africa. So which means a lot of Africans can now dream to become innovators and entrepreneurs.But when you look at the number of actually African venture that get to grow and scale globally, they are just very few. So that's why when you go to conferences, people continue to cite the same example and you're thinking, okay, we are 1.6 billion right now in Africa.Why can we not have more innovation than starting in Africa that grow and scale globally so people can actually start seeing concretely how Africa is contributing globally.So I wanted to just use the AFRI Prospect to bring about those promising businesses, innovative businesses that have a potential to grow and scale, then connect those to global market.And the second part was basically addressing the problem I just mentioned around the fact that women struggle to access the capital they need to basically contribute to the society, as I just said. And so that's how I set up she equity. Because right now in Africa there is 42 billion funding gap when you compare women and men.So basically about, you know, women struggle, continue to struggle to access the capital while actually they are. There were many women embarking on entrepreneurship in Africa than anywhere in the world as we speak. You know, so basically solving two problems.One is around getting more African innovation to grow and scale.And the second is around, you know, economically empowering women who are already running business, working hard and they're not asking for charity, they're just asking to get access to opportunity to capital like every other woman anywhere in the world.

Claire Murigande00:22:12

So how do you identify these innovators or these companies or startups that you're supporting through your organization? Do you have a network or People of reference in different countries and you know what is happening. Can you tell us about that?

Pauline Koelbel00:22:30

Yeah, exactly. So I always believed in leveraging what you have.So when I decided to set up those two ventures to address the challenges I just mentioned, I also had to look at what were my assets.And my assets were really the networks I built when I was working at AIF where I was able to reach all 55 African countries and also worked with all key incubators and accelerators across the continent. And also with my involvement in different boards, especially with my connection with greentech.A combination of all those engagement I have had in the past and I have now gives me access to really a good pipeline from like sourcing deals, but also from being able to provide like a venture building support.Because if I may mention like what I think we bring to the table in terms of addressing the female gender funding gap is that also we provide venture building support and also access to high value networks.Meaning that we want to make sure that if a woman needs to connect with someone in any country for businesses, we can actually facilitate that, you know, because it becomes easier. How can I do that? Because of the networks I already have, the people I have worked with.And also believing that you don't need to reinvent the wheel, it's always good to partner. So I have had a good collaboration with, for example GreenTech Capital Partners.We've been, you know, collaborating on share equity and, and right now actually all the company have invested, they've been a part of the pipeline for green tech which basically made easier to find them, but also to screen them and do the due diligence. So at the end it's a win win for everyone.And the bigger winner is basically an African entrepreneur that we invested in because then they have a cash and if support they need, they can now just focus on growing and scaling their businesses. And that's my intention.

Claire Murigande00:24:41

And you mentioned previously the situation that we are all facing now globally, which is the COVID 19 pandemic, how has that affected your activities or the people you're working with on the continent?

Pauline Koelbel00:24:55

So on my venture actually not much. So I launched both Afri Prosperity and she Equity during the COVID times basically.And of course when I was talking to a few friends, they thought this was a crazy thing because even people were already in the business. They were waiting then, now you coming in as a new person, a new space. So they were like, you know, don't you want to wait?So the question is like wait until, wait. So I decided to Dive in first of all, because this Covid means there's no traveling.That meant I could actually sit down and get all the admin stuff done, no time, which actually it's a lot of work. If anyone who ever set up a company will tell you it's a lot of work, we tend to undermine that part.So that was going because Covid allowed me to sit down and get it done. And then once I had lunch, I was able to reactivate my network for AFRI prospect, start working with a few entrepreneurs.But also anytime you are every stage, the first thing is that people know you are there, right? So you cannot also of, you know, expect what you can achieve in year one.So from my assessment, and I think we have done away for a few months into business under Covid and then for she equity what we've been able to do. This is not my world is the feedback I've gotten from other professional investors.Being able to invest in three good companies within less than four months, it's quite an achievement because I also dived in and started and showed the skin in the game and showed the passion, proved that actually it's not just a dream, it can be done. The example of what we could invest in, I was able to get few angel investors on board. So I would say it's actually not bad.Now I'm just ready for this to be over so we can actually also grow equity and spread the impact.

Claire Murigande00:26:59

That's very impressive. Congratulations to you. So somehow this Covid situation and staying at home has been a bit of an enabler for you.

Pauline Koelbel00:27:08

I always think like, I mean everyone say like a crisis is an opportunity as well. It depends on how you look at it.And for me, I'm actually really grateful that I took this dive because now I can be able to say okay, during the COVID when everyone else was waiting for the good times, we took a chance and we probably save a few companies from having to make tough choices which is a really, if you want to stay afloat was to reduce the team members or you know, cancel some of the aspects of the business which those are killers for any startup.So not only we've been able to actually invest in the good companies that probably might not even have been interested in a share equity offering if there were so many other options on the table, but also really amplify the type of impact I expected that we could have because those are the times where any cash is needed anywhere in hands of an African startup.

Claire Murigande00:28:09

Now, looking forward, are you looking out for specific trends how does that work in terms of identifying future innovations?

Pauline Koelbel00:28:17

So what Covid has just demonstrated, it's really things that we knew but we were not paying attention to. It was like some sector are more important than others. Right. Like agriculture. Right.So when it comes to African context, agriculture is kind of neglected because it's still substance in many ways. And most of the poor people are farmers. I don't know, you probably know any poor person you know yourself in Africa is probably a farmer. Right.But right now with the COVID people realize that hey, at the end of the day everyone has to eat, even people with money they needed to go and get food. The whole supply chain was disrupted.So the innovation in really making sure that the agriculture sector become more productive, resilience, the supply chain, the whole value chain basically, because again, everyone needs to eat at the end of the day, the health care, we realize that this really very connected with every sector, that with this Covid, all systems were on hold. I mean, some of them are still on hold anyway. Right. So when it comes to Africa, the health care system is quite weak.So I'm expecting that they're going to be more investment that going to building resilience, but also addressing really the weaker health care system that we have on the continent. And of course the innovators probably will be a part of this because it's not going to be the health care as usual, the renewable energy.I think when people had to stay home, they realized also the importance of having energy in many countries in Africa right now. So electricity is on and off, but if you were to have access to renewable energy, you can actually address this issue.And of course technology, I mean this cannot be overemphasized.Like we realize without technology, you know, classes were off, you know, a lot of people were able to do online learning, but people in rural areas don't have access to Internet, they struggle. Right. So I believe there will be more now emphasis in looking at how to connect and connected people as a priority.And then overall, I assume there gonna be a movement around this whole concept of building back, you know, better, where basically people have to fix wrongs that were there before COVID Again, those around not giving, investing in women, not empowering young people, all those are backbones of society. So the whole post Covid, I think is going to be around building resilience for future shock.I expect that they're going to be new program or collaboration also to make it happen. Because we have seen that the lack of collaboration also means there's a piece meat type of solution.And the lastly, I'm looking forward to seeing how some of the innovation that came about because of COVID will be scared.Maybe we are forced scared or adapted, but will not just die because they proved they can respond quickly to a shock and probably can be leveraged for something else.

Claire Murigande00:31:35

Do you have any specific example in mind on that last point?

Pauline Koelbel00:31:39

So I know like a few scientists in the Senegal were able to come up with a system where they can actually have the machines that people were using, you know, for Covid during the time where, you know, countries were bidding and competing to get all access to PPE material. So they say Senegal scientists actually came up with their own PPE material they're able to actually share with other countries.

Claire Murigande00:32:07

So, Pauline, I think now we are slowly reaching to the end of our conversation, but I still have one question related to your experience so far. I've always been curious to ask this to many people, and now I'm asking it to you.So what is the one piece of advice that you still consider to have served you throughout your whole journey? You still consider it today as a very strong advice. What would that be?

Pauline Koelbel00:32:30

I have one, but an impact in different levels. Can I share that?

Claire Murigande00:32:35

Yes, of course you can.

Pauline Koelbel00:32:36

So one is really the word hope, you know, H, O P E. Right. So I knew, like holding when you hope is a key to any situation. Anything you're struggling with, you know, hope will carry you through.But actually I discover later how this is an abbreviation to something that means hold, hold on pain eases. So hold on pain and then eases. So hold on pain eases. So this for me.And again, so I didn't go into my personal stories, but those who know me, they know that my, my journey has not been like a. A red carpet, you know, just to simplify things.So, so, so this for me reminds me the saying that what does not kill you makes you strong, but you need to hold on that hope. And also like whatever you you holding on your hope, you have to work hard, do your share. All right? And. And be kind because it's.Even when you're struggling, you have no excuse for being a meme. No, you have to remain kind because at the end there's. There is, I believe there's always an angel on the way.So you just need to focus on finding such angels. And I can tell you this is not easy when you are in the dark places or very bad situation where there's no light.You can't see the light at the end of the tunnel. But I think I'm an example for how if you don't give up and hold on, hope you work hard, you stay kind, many angels come on your way.So I was helped, and I'm very grateful for that. I'm still being helped until today. So I could have given up at some point when I was refugees and I was just a number for many people.But then when I was there, I remember I always believed that that was something temporary for me, like that was in my life, know. And then, yeah, people came and they really helped me and they helped me regain my identity.Pauline, the woman you're talking to today was no longer a number.And they mentored me and they take, you know, me through the journey of going back to school, you know, really pursuing, like competitive opportunities like Fulbright. That was something I would never dream about when I was a number in refugee camp.Opened many doors and also kind of reminded me that I needed to also remember that this journey does not end with me. So that's actually what has really pushed me always to want to have a life with purpose. And that has been my motivation to want to pay it forward.And that's why when you asked me is anything, I wanted to add it to my introduction. I said, just believe I'm a woman with the purpose and the passion to make a difference in this world. And this is not something I was born with.I just learned it through my journey where I realized the power of hope and the power of, you know, just not giving up and working hard and being kind.

Claire Murigande00:35:54

That's very powerful and very moving. Thank you so much for sharing that.We're now at the end of the show, but before I let you go, I have a rapid questionnaire, three very, very short questions for listeners to know you a little bit better on the personal side as well. Question number one, what are you listening to non stop these days in terms of music?

Pauline Koelbel00:36:16

So here I'm gonna disappoint you. I don't really have a particular playlist.I like to take advantage of technology and depict the type of music from Spotify based on my mood, my activities, and the time in a day. For example, when I'm cooking, I like to listen to an African beat mix so I can chop and dance at the same time.

Claire Murigande00:36:38

Okay, I can imagine you doing that.

Pauline Koelbel00:36:40

See, you know me well. If it's late in the evening, I like jazz type. And again, because for me, I realized like all the pop technology allows you to discover, right?That's why I use it to go and look at the mix and then learn and discover new music. But I must confess though, like this time, this song, Jerusalem, I don't know if you know it, it rings in my head all the time.

Claire Murigande00:37:06

Question number two, do you have a song, an artist or a band that particularly resonated with you at a specific time in your life?

Pauline Koelbel00:37:16

So I have actually two. One is Waka Waka before this song was stolen by, you know, Shakira, quote unquote. Who's stolen?I knew it because I was a girl Scout a long time ago and we used to dance to these songs. So this brings me back to my really past happy life as a kid. And then the other one is happy.You can't help not be happy when you listen to these songs.

Claire Murigande00:37:46

Third and last question. What is your all time favorite album? You absolutely recommend and if you don't have an album, you can also recommend a book.

Pauline Koelbel00:37:55

In terms of books, if I was to just pick one book, this is a challenge. I will put the book called Homo Deus. It's a book about a brief history of tomorrow.It's a New York Times best selling author, Yuvar Noah Harari and basically talks about the future of humanity. He wrote two books. The first one was Sapiens and the second one is Homo Devos.My hope is like whoever picks up Homo devus will want to read Sapiens as well because I think if you read those, they're written from historical perspective, but also there's a science innovation involved. It really takes you on a journey of understanding where we came from and where we're heading.

Claire Murigande00:38:39

I will make sure that all these references that you shared with me right now, the book and the music will be included on the podcast page for the listeners to come back to that. Thank you so much Again, I can't stop thanking you because this was really a great conversation. I learned a lot.You're always a passionate person to listen to and this is just another day that I'm living through that passion of yours. Thank you so much and I hope to see you soon.

Pauline Koelbel00:39:07

Thank you so much, Claire for this opportunity to chat with you.

Claire Murigande00:39:19

That was episode one, A Conversation with Pauline Koelberg. Pauline is really a passionate woman who never ceases to amaze me and I can't wait to see what she will achieve next.Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to today's episode. I really appreciate you taking the time. You'll find all relevant information on this episode on the podcast page.Here is a reference Narratives of Purpose podcast page. Until the next episode, take care of yourselves. Stay well and stay inspired.