Negotiating with Confidence: Pricing, Power & Leadership with Carrie Gallant

In this episode of Live With The Pricing Lady, I sit down with Carrie Gallant, CEO, and founder of the Gallant Leadership Institute. We talk about Carrie's Pricing journey and she shares with us how she helps other people negotiate for themselves and others. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the episode.

Welcome to Live with The Pricing Lady. I'm Janene Liston, your hostess, where we turn Pricing confusion into clarity so you can grow your business with more confidence Today I'm very excited to have a special guest with us, so please help me welcome Carrie Gallant, CEO, and founder of the Gallant Leadership Institute. Hello, Carrie.

Hi, Janene, so great to be here with you today.

I'm excited to dig into this conversation now. One of the reasons that I invited Carrie here to join us today is because we're gonna be talking not only about her Pricing journey, but about the topic of negotiation, and I know that you want to know more about that. Before we get into that, let's get to know Carrie a bit better. Carrie, where are you calling from today?

I'm calling in from Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada.

Ah, bright and early in the morning. Carrie, how would you describe your superpower?

Hmm.

It's a great question and I love that you asked this 'cause I think it's so important to really get to know our own superpowers and many of us don't see them. And actually that's one of my superpowers is I can help others see their superpower. There's a lot of people, a lot of women clients I work with who don't actually see or know what they're great at and think, oh, everyone can do that. But when we call it out and we can actually see that others see our superpowers, then we can actually lean into them. That is definitely one of my superpowers. And, and to do that, I rely on a few different things, one of which is my intuition about that. Mm-hmm. Because the idea comes to me clearly. But also it's backed by, by human design, which is actually in my human design blueprint. And maybe we'll dive into that a little bit later. But it's a tool that helps to unearth a lot of those things and show us what what we have as our human potential.

Excellent. What is one interesting thing that most people don't know about you that you'd like to share with us today?

Oh, that's so fun. You know, I was thinking about this question and I, I, there's a few different things and I thought, you know what? I studied theater arts in high school. I realized I, I really dove into it and was in a few plays. I was in Ana Green Gables twice. I wasn't Dan despite the red hair. But it was a lot of fun and I really. Thought my best friend at the time, and I were really keen to get into acting and, and really do a lot of that stuff. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be part of my future, is I wanna be a performer. And I still do perform in a way, in the sense that I'm, I'm now more of a speaker than I am. On stage and those kinds of things. But my real thing is switching it into realizing that what I love doing most is having conversation. Mm-hmm. And really studying conversation and how that really allows our work to enhance, to improve in our relationships with others. And so now I help, I primarily work with a lot of women in helping them find their voice in conversation.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Well that leads into my next question. What inspired you to start your business?

Hmm. Wow. Okay. Let's see. What inspired me to start my business? Well, a few different things. I was in a different situation at that time when I was working. And there were some economic changes happening and I looked around and I, at that time I actually was also studying coaching. So I, I was a lawyer for a number of years. And while I was a lawyer, I was also a mediator. So I was helping parties to negotiate to come together, unions and employers, unions and employees and, and somebody, a friend of mine turned me on to coaching. I was actually considering doing my PhD in psychology, which is my first degree, and she said, you know what? You might be, she was doing hers at the time, and she said, you might be really interested in this thing called professional coaching. And when I realized, oh, so coaching with. One person is kind of like what I do as a mediator, but helping that person. You know connect with their conflict styles and coach them through conflict and do it one-on-one. And so that's really kind of what started it was looking at, oh, now I'm in this situation. I might have to think about what's gonna happen with the work that I was doing and might I get laid off? And so I started to think about developing my own. Practice, if you will. Not as a lawyer, but, but as a coach and a mediator. And so that's really what started it my going out on my own As you as, as it were at the time. Right. And then ultimately just really moving that forward and, and bringing it out more into what is now the Gallant Leader Institute, which is really a home and a place for women. Business owners, women executives and leaders to really come together in that gallant leader model to really tap into that authentic leadership and negotiation. Mm-hmm. It's training, coaching, and everything that I can bring and help and bring the community together to, to rise into their full potential as leaders.

Okay, so you've mentioned law, you mentioned psychology. Can you just give us the short bio? Connect the dots for me.

Sure. Well I did my first degree in psychology. This was after theater arts right in high school. And I was really, I actually started out as an English major, as partly because of theater and my interest. And then I got inspired by a really bad grade that I got in first year psychology that really ticked me off. And it fueled the fire under my butt to mm-hmm ace the rest of my exams, which I did. Along the way I fell in love with this study. I had in my head I might do law school. I did that. Taking the two pieces almost and bringing them together. And really what I talk about Janene is, is I think the thread for me between the two and seeing how my. Professional life, even my personal life has evolved since then, mm-hmm, is this thread of human behavior. Mm-hmm. The thread of human behavior actually started in my love of literature and studying classic literature modern literature, theater, arts, and then psychology, and law. Is all about human behavior. It's more about trying to control and manage human behavior and putting boundaries around and guide rails around. Now that's a lot of what I help my clients do. Bringing together the strategy, the logic side of things, along with more inner world. Mm-hmm. And, and human behavior that the study of behavioral science.

The path that's taking you on. One of the things we talked about is that you supported many women in negotiating for leadership roles and pay equity. I'd like you to take us back on your own journey because you mentioned to me that you used to work for the Pay Equity Commission. And I'm curious to learn more about that and how that shaped what you, what you do now with your clients.

Well, thank you. Great question again. I became a feminist along my early journey in what I became aware of in literature as well as in law about how women's lives have unfolded and, and been constrained. And, and now opening up. And yet there's still so many constraints that we, that we face. And so, when I got hired for my first job as, as a lawyer, it wasn't actually as a lawyer, it was as a mediator. Mm-hmm. And I was the only lawyer amongst the mediators at, at that time in pay equity. So this was back in Ontario where I'm from originally in Toronto. And I was just like, oh yeah, this is it. This is the dream job. I get to help close the wage gap. Oh my god. I was so excited. Right. And and so I. One of my experiences though. So I got hired and, you know, I went through the hiring process and the usual type of conversation that you go, do you get when you answer the phone. 'cause we, I was literally answering the phone at that point in time. We didn't have the internet or Zoom and the human resources officer for our parent Ministry of Labor offered me the job and gave me the salary. And said, and that's the best we can do. So what did I do?

Accepted it.

I said, yeah. Automatically. I said, yes. Like all good girls do, right? I, I was, well, I, she said it was the best she could do, right? So why wouldn't I believe that? Mm-hmm. And and also because I was so excited. I was so excited and I thought, wow, they want me, and I'm there. And I got hired alongside the same time as three other, two other women and a man. And about 18 months into our job, after we were traveling around the province, helping unions and employers to negotiate and employees to process their complaints and deal with that. And one day we on, we, we found out over coffee we overheard that he was actually making a lot more than us. Mm-hmm.

Spoiler.

Guess where we work? Do remember what the story and the Pay Equity Commission Commission we're like, what this has happened. Right. And so I tell this story a lot because, not because I'm slamming the pay equity Commission or pay equity because I believe in it. I believe in legislation and its role. And I also believe in what the commission does. It's had great success.

Mm-hmm.

But because if it can happen there. It can happen anywhere. Yeah. Right. Because there's this process that we go through when we're in our job negotiations that is

mm-hmm.

Somewhat standard. Mm-hmm. Across the board. And so it's knowing what to expect. And so that was a really big learning moment for me and for the other two women because we, all three of us realized that none of us had negotiated, none of us had pushed back against the, that's the best we can do, which we all heard.

Mm-hmm.

But he did. And so why? Yeah. Why did he and not we do that. And so that's part of the journey that I ended up going on. Mm-hmm. I will pause and say there is a second part to this story, which is that we were able to get it all back for the, for the three of us retro retroactively.

Oh, that's amazing. Well that's, I mean, it's, it's, it's good because you know, they're talking the, are walking the talk, let's say.

Yeah. And that's its own story

that I'd had. I didn't work for the pay equity commissioned, but my first job outta university about after I left the company, I found out that the, the young per the young guy, they hired like six months after me into the same type of job. He also came straight outta university. He also, he was paid more and a couple of people in the company challenged the owner of the company on it, and the owner of the company said, I would never pay a woman the same. To do the same job. And thankfully, I mean, I was out of the company by then, but it, you know, that, that sort of thing sticks with you.

Yes, it does. Yeah. And the unfortunate thing Janene is mm-hmm. It still happens today. Yeah. It still happens today. Yeah. In many different ways. Mm-hmm. Including exactly the way you described and exactly the way I described. Mm-hmm. So we are still in the same cultural soup that we were mm-hmm. 10, 20, 30 years ago. That is followed us for the last 5,000 years. Mm-hmm. You know, it's, it's in, it's in our, I call it the cultural soup, but it's also in part, it's in our DNA. Mm-hmm. And. You know, we, we, women have only been at this employment game at having our own money for a very, very, very short period of time. Right. In the grand scheme of things. Mm-hmm. And so representation is a real issue. Right. In what, what we see growing up, in what we feel in our physical being you know, what feels safe. Mm-hmm. And so this is something that I work on with my clients is helping them find that place of safety to be able to. Walk through the fire mm-hmm. Of, of standing in the heat of, oh my God, I'm asking for more and how to do that. So it's the mechanics. The strategy of negotiating, of asking for more. And even Pricing your favorite topic, we can do it. Exactly. And when I'm working with my women business owners, it's the same, it's the same type of stuff. Yeah. Is, is working through that. And then also, you know, shoring it up with the with the ability to hold ourselves. Physiologically, the mindset, the the what we have to do with so much we know now about neuroscience and and, and even somatics science in terms of what, you know, you know, the whole thing around trauma informed coaching and all how that sits in the body. And it can really right. Guard us against doing things that are actually in our best interest mm-hmm. And in the best interest of others as well.

Right, right, right. So one of the things that Carrie shared with me earlier is that she was in part responsible, I will say. For one of my, a chapter in one of my favorite books of all times, playing Big from Tara Moore. If you haven't read this book, it's a, it's a must, but, and not just for women, but I also think for men for fathers, for husbands, you know, I think it's, it's a really important to understand we're coming from, and am I right that you're responsible in part for, for contributing to the chapter on. On negotiation or was it in the, the course content. In the course content. Yeah, in the course content. Okay.

So I, I, when she, she was writing the book after I got involved in the course content. Mm-hmm. So some of it's in there, in the book as well.

Right.

But the, the module on negotiation is, is actually me doing the training.

Okay.

And Tara coaching following up with that. Right. So it's a great relationship that we've had for over a decade now.

It's a fantastic book and I did the program as well and I used to regularly run book groups just on that book. It's the only book group I've ever run, and that's the only book that I ever. That I ever had because I find it so powerful. Now, I'd like to shift things for a moment here, because of course we wanna learn more from you about negotiation, but I wanna take this in, in the direction of Pricing. So I'd like to understand a little bit about what was Pricing like when, for you, when you first started your business.

Well, it's interesting Janene. 'cause you've already heard my story from when I started my career, right? Mm-hmm. As a lawyer. So I already knew that. And yet, you know, it's like I was saying, this stuff follows us. There's a reason why I didn't ask. For more at the time that I didn't, didn't know the mechanics and I didn't feel that I had the ability

mm-hmm.

In that moment to ask for more. And the same thing was true for the other two women. So there's some gendered reasons why that's true, but also personal.

Mm-hmm.

And so when it came time to really. Price out my first offer as a, for a paying client. It was uncomfortable. I'm not gonna kid you. Right? Of course. It was uncomfortable. I was like, and it was very personal. I do wanna make that distinction because it felt very personal, right? Mm-hmm. Oh, what am I worth? That's what it, the inquiry, and this tends to happen, I find for a lot of women business owners and entrepreneurs is it is Pricing becomes a what am I personally worth? So and I had come from the legal world as well, where everything is on billable hours, right? Mm-hmm. Now there's good and bad around that, but everything's defined by that over results, right? Over the outcome itself.

Right.

And so stepping into entrepreneurial Pricing was like, oh, what do I do? I mean, I was trained as a coach to coach for an hour or 90 minutes or whatever that looked like. So how do I do this? Oh, I must think about how I might have priced myself as a lawyer. Mm-hmm. Well, I've only been at this, I haven't even been at this for six months. So what do I do? Do I charge? Do I charge lowers so I can attract people? Say, oh, I'm just new. You know, so, and this is common.

Yes.

And, you know, it was, it was kind of like staring at a blank canvas and trying to go I need to be creative here. Can't do it right now. You know what I'm saying? So,

and there's also a lot of fear. I, and it maybe wasn't the case for you, but I think for a, well, my experience is that for a lot of women, there's a lot of fear associated with putting a price out there.

Absolutely. Yeah. And so, of course I, I, I underpriced at first I looked and, and I thought, okay, well I'm gonna do, and also because I was looking at what others were doing, who were starting out, and I was listening to the, the words of wisdom at the time is to, you know, do it for free. Get a few clients, get some testimonials. There's still some advantages in doing that. Yeah. And and also, and it was just like, and then raise your prices as you go.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, there's some pros and cons and some val validation in there. Mm-hmm. But, you know, one of the things that I learned that I think was really valuable mm-hmm. In all of that was when you underprice yourself. Others don't see your value. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna separate value and worth for a second. Mm-hmm. Because value is about, this is what negotiation is about, this is what Pricing is, this is what business is about. Right. Right. It's a value exchange.

Mm-hmm.

I'm providing you with this in exchange for. Something. Mm-hmm. In exchange for compensation. Mm-hmm. For a, a fee, a price, or whatever that is.

Mm-hmm.

And so it was really about stepping back and thinking, okay, well what am I delivering? What are they receiving? And so it was really getting learning to get into that. And that took a little while. It took two, looking to others who were, where I wanted to grow into and thinking, oh, okay, so if she's doing this, or even he, in some cases mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I can give it a try.

Right. I always, I talk about it often with my clients is shifting their vision. So when they're looking at their business, they see it through a lens of value. Yes, yes. The value for me is one of the things that most people, many people, male and female, miss. And that's one of the main reasons why they end up feeling so insecure or feel a lack of confidence around their Pricing.

Absolutely.

Interesting. So when it comes, if we take these two topics, the Pricing topic and the negotiation, of course there is a, an assumption that as an entrepreneur, at some point in time you're going to be negotiating something. And I'm curious. What are the differences between how men and women negotiate and how that might come into play in, in entrepreneurship or in running a business?

Well, and, and I, I'm gonna but make a caveat right off the top is when we're talking about the differences between men and women, these are trends, right? These are trends, generalization. Yeah. And so in any trend there is like a bell curve. Mm-hmm. There's the average in the middle where there's a reason why research goes that way, and the research that I have read and understand and keep up with as well as anecdotally what I hear from my clients and out there in the marketplace.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tends to reflect this. So there's always gonna be the outlier, right? Right. There's always gonna be the outlier that are gonna be different men and women who are gonna say, I don't relate to that. Of course. So in general when it comes to negotiating in employment, I. For example. Mm-hmm. Women are now asking at a greater rate than they were when I started to speak about this back in the late two thousands, based on some of the research that was coming out, that, that point that was saying that men ask four times more often than women do. Mm-hmm. For salary when they're nego, when they're offered a job.

Mm-hmm.

And and, and here's another, the second piece. That is still somewhat true, is still very true, is when women do ask for more, they get 33% less. Mm-hmm. 33%

less. That was one of the things in, in Tara's book that always stuck with me. Yeah. Was this, this bias around both men, and this was in, I think the research she shared was in relationship to feedback, but both men and women tend to give women. Feedback that is less actionable. Correct. It's vague and wow, it's vague or it's, you know, it's like a personal character trait or, you know, it's not, it's not as actionable in terms of the type and, and quality of the feedback that they give. So it sounds, I give you an

example. Mm-hmm. One of my pet peeves. Can I give you an example of one of my pet pees sly, I'll try this on for size. You need more executive presence.

Yeah. What is that? What do you do

with that? No, no. There's, there's a, a great thing that any person who gets feedback like that can do right away is say, what do you mean? Right. Or what's an example? Can you give me an example?

Right.

What, what, what do I need to be doing? Can I get more specific? Word examples of what I need to do. So we need to have specificity around that. Like what's the specificity around the feedback? Right. Ask for that specificity. Mm-hmm. So that's one thing. Yeah, you're right. It is about, there's vagueness that that creeps into it because one of

the things I see in a Pricing context is that women try to prepare themselves to avoid. The negotiation conversation altogether, yes. As opposed to prepare themselves to negotiate.

I think that's absolutely true in both those contexts, by the way. Okay. In both contexts. Yeah. Yeah. And so one of the best things that that we do is rehearsal.

Yeah.

Rehearsal.

I love

that 'cause of the avoidance, right? So we, we, we put together the strategy, we put together the plan, and then it's like, okay, let's get on camera or let's, if we're in person,

right? It was just

with a client the other day and she's, and she, by the way, she's in the C-suite.

Mm-hmm.

And yet one of the things that she has a hard time with is accepting compliments. Mm-hmm. And it receiving good news. Right. She doesn't, you know, there's a resistance to that and there's a whole bunch of reasons why that might be the case. A lot of us are. A lot of us are. Yes. And so we actually did a rehearsal in, at lunch. We were in a restaurant, but we had a nice quiet corner and said, okay, we're gonna practice. Yeah. And it was really uncomfortable for her. Yeah. For me to get the feedback from me. Her coach that she's been working with for three years, I mean, we have a trust relationship. Right, right, right. But she was having a hard, so this is, this is how we, we just wanna unpack that and practice. Doing it differently because we need to get the words out of our mouth and actually form our lips around the words in order for them to get out when we're under pressure. Because the moment you're in that tough situation, again with the high stakes moments in a conversation, in a negotiation, and they say. Oh, well, here's the best we can do. And you're like, blah, blah, blah. You know? Exactly, exactly. Unless you've rehearsed it in some way.

Yeah, yeah. I did the You can, the rest of you can't see this. 'cause we're, we're, we're on audio only. But I do the Dan Egal who did the handy brain model where, oh yes. Yeah, you get triggered and you flip your lid. Boop lid. And it's so true, right? And then you can't, you, you know, that's why when you feel nervous in a negotiation or when somebody asks you what you charge, why you can't, you know, part of the reason you can't think clearly is because you literally sever the connection between that logical thinking part of your brain and, and the part that's just reactive. Know what, I love that you brought up the, the practicing because that's something that I do with my clients all the time. Let's, you know, rehearse your new prices. Let's rehearse, you know, what you'll say when they say that's too expensive. And that sort of practice can help you prepare for those situations and, and it helps you actually to stay more comfortable.

Agree,

because you don't have to make up an answer. You kind of already have thought about it in advance.

And you practice the difficult moments, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And but before we even get there, we have to start at the beginning, which is around that clarity instead of the vagueness.

Right?

Right. So we're given, so women are typically given vague feedback or unactionable as Tara says. Mm-hmm. And we're also, in return, we can also be vague ourselves. Right. We can be vague with what we want. Mm-hmm. So, and I think there's a very. Reasonable reason, background for that. And that is, you know, for millennia I ask we weren't actually allowed.

Mm-hmm.

Have clarity. We weren't really allowed to want something specific for ourselves because mm-hmm. We were at the whim of the males in our lives. Right. We were supported by them financially. I mean, it wasn't until the mid seventies that women were allowed to hold their own credit, their own loans, their own houses in their own name. Right. So this is a relatively recent piece in our history, right? So in our DNA, we've got all this. Stuff this crap. And it's also in men's DNA too. Yes. In terms of, and women in terms of how women see other women too. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. So what we expect of men and women when they come to the table, by the way, in negotiation, is different too. So I have heard this story and I still hear it. Mm-hmm. That when a male comes to the table, and this is in the employment situation specifically, and I think it also mirrors mm-hmm. In the startup world and in the venture capital world. And when, when men, when women go for funding at banks mm-hmm. For their own businesses mm-hmm. Is the expectation is that men will negotiate. So already they're giving him money on the table. Right. With the, they're already upping the offer so they don't have to negotiate. Right. Right. Right. So this is a, a cycle, but I wanna come back to the clarity piece. Mm-hmm. I did this talk many years ago for a group of women in construction. Mm-hmm. Women in construction. Now, I don't know about you, but my first image when I thought, oh, I'm getting to go with these tough women who are in construction. They're gonna be strong and powerful. They're gonna have a few things to teach me. Well. Not quite. So women in construction, a lot of them were internal, right? Mm-hmm. They were internal to construction organizations. They were running the office. Mm-hmm. A few of them were out actually in the field. Not many, but I was asked to, to ask them a question that they could all answer at the beginning of my talk. And I thought, okay, what am I gonna ask? And so I said, okay, I've got a great question. I'd like you to tell me what do you want? That was my question specifically. What do you want? And I tell you, Janene, they went around the room, 40 of them, and 80% of them started their answer with this.

I dunno,

I would like da da and only a handful of them use the words I want. Now this may sound like, oh, Carrie, what are you talking about? They're the same things.

Mm-hmm.

Well, English major, right? Want is declarative. I want this. I would like Is conditional.

Yeah.

Is conditional.

Yeah.

And so if you think about it, I would like X mm-hmm. If what? If it would happen? If I am lucky if you would give it to me. So it's all dependent on something else, timing something happening that's outside of your. Right. So that this, I think we come by this honestly, and so it's a very different thing, which we have a hard time being that. Yeah. So that's the first piece is getting really clear. Mm-hmm. That clarity is like the the priceless piece of the puzzle mm-hmm. Is spending time in that clarity. Whether it's, yeah, discerning what you're gonna have is your Pricing, which, you know, I do a whole thing with my women entrepreneurs around that to, to discern, well, what, what is that based on? Mm-hmm. And, and the same thing with, with with the executives when they're going through the, their, comp negotiations is, we gotta get clear on what that is. And also part of it is also what you don't want. So it's like having that, having that boundary clear too.

When I, when I was still in the corporate world, I, I went, went, took the train to go for an interview. I think it was the second round of interviews and. I hadn't really told people I was interviewing and I got on the train to come home after the interview and I ran into a friend on the train. She was the head of a HR from Europe for a large FMCG company. And so I confessed to her what was going on and she said, okay, what do you want? And I was like, a deer head in the co, you know, a deer caught in the headlights. I was like, what do you mean what I want? She goes, that recruiter's gonna call you tomorrow and he's gonna ask you what they want. 'cause they're gonna offer you a job. Almost. Definitely. So she took out a little cocktail napkin and we spent the next 15 minutes of the 20 minute train ride. Making a list of what I wanted and, and the things that, and she goes and, and be wild because you may not, at the time that he asked, you have the courage to ask for all of it, but if you write down everything, you're more likely to actually ask for some of the things in the middle there that. You know, that maybe you wouldn't have or would've already discounted. So it was a, it was a great lesson to me and a great exercise as well. And now whenever I'm in a similar situation, I'm always preparing my want list alongside

a gift you gave you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was great. Cool. Excellent. So, Carrie. Many entrepreneurs, they struggle with setting the right prices for their products and services and sort of re let's say, regardless of the negotiation, although there are some important tactics and strategies if you're in an industry where you need to negotiate. But I'm curious, based on your experience as an entrepreneur, what tips or advice do you have for people? Hmm, great

question. I. Well, one of the tips is, is that you know that Pricing is, is about positioning. And it's also a bit about permission in terms of giving yourself permission to stand for that once you've decided what it is, and I say, decided. Advisedly, I mean, it's the, the root of the word is to cut off, right? Is to, is to leave behind everything else When you decide, you cut off the remainder. Mm-hmm. And so when you decide on your price, decide on your price, and that's your positioning, right? Of, of your, of your product, of your service. And here's my tip is, my tip is don't give discounts. Don't give discount and actually get the word discount out of your vocabulary. Why? Because think about it, it's a di you're. The counting of your services, you're dissing them. You're taking or saying, no, it's not really worth that. Here. You can have it for a thousand dollars. That's my price, but oh, oh, oh. You, you don't, you can't really do it today. Oh, oh, you need, oh, let me just go down to 800. Well, what have you done for yourself now? You've now discounted yourself. You now discounted your business. You've now discounted your ability to meet your target goals for your business. Mm-hmm. There's a pushback and they can't meet the price. Mm-hmm. Great. They're probably still interested. What, what can you do? Right? Ask, ask questions, or, you know, maybe let you can rejig your, not your price. But the package, whatever it is you're offering. So, you know, for myself, right? If I'm a, if I'm offering a, a package, I, I do more packages with clients.

Mm-hmm.

And I say, okay, even if I'm doing it for a corporate client, it's like, okay, we can, in, in three months, we can do X, Y, and Z and here's because that's what they've asked for. Right? Right. So for all the things that you've asked for, here's, here's the fee, right. Right. And they said, oh, well we can't quite do that. This, so I have another client, I'll give an example. I had a client that we were in negotiation with over a some team building work around culture and negotiation and all kinds of things. And so he asked for a bunch of stuff and we said, okay, well we can do it this way. And, but we gave him three options. So that's the other thing too, is it's always helpful to provide a couple of options to them already. Yes. Is we can do this for that and we can do this for that. Mm-hmm. And he ended up doing a multi-phase approach where we said, okay, well you know what the, in this budget year, I can do a, so let's, let's go with a mm-hmm. Didn't. Bock on the fee at all. 'cause the overall fee, it just was too much in Right. 12 month period for their budget. So they went with a, yeah. And then they said we'll do B next year. Mm-hmm. So that's great. Yeah. So we can negotiate there too,

right. As

opposed to, I call it the price

value scale.

Exactly, keep the price, value, scale,

and balance, and as much as possible play on the value side and let the price side be where, be in balance with the value side. Yeah.

Yeah.

And if I can just add one quick mm-hmm. Quick tip. And for those of you, I guess you're not on camera, but I'm just holding my finger up to my mouth because my biggest tip in negotiation for, especially for women, anytime, anywhere, is to stop talking. When you put your offer out, it's like putting your anchor out into the ground. It's just stop, let it land.

Yeah.

Wait for what they come back with.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think the don't try to fill up justification and excuses because you're just diminishing what you've just put in the ground. Yeah.

Yeah. I think the, the instinct is to, to try and justify it. Yeah. But there, you don't need to justify it. What you need to do is you need to let them reflect on it and think about, okay, does that fit with what we want? Let them, let them lead into the next part of that discussion, and then you can respond to that. I love that.

Absolutely. Excellent. Just own it. Yeah. Yeah.

Love that. Stop.

Stop talking.

All right. We need to start wrapping this up now. Okay. So I'd like to know if there's one thing you'd like people to remember from our conversation today, what would that be?

Well, you know, I think Pricing mm-hmm. Is. A filter, not a barrier. It's a filter, not a barrier. And so when you've done your homework, you've worked with me, or you've worked with Janene and you've got your clarity and you've got your price decided, and your Pricing fits the goals that you have for your business mm-hmm. And all the things that you're wanting to do, it's a filter, not a barrier. Mm-hmm. Yes. Some people will say. At the end of the day, you know what, it's, it's not a fit for me. Or they'll say it, I, I just can't do it this year, or whatever. Mm-hmm. And if you're not discounting, again, your Pricing to fit their situation, 'cause it's not gonna feel good, I'm gonna tell you that right now because I did do it once and I will never do it again because it doesn't feel good. And, and so you're discounting yourself, right? Right. So it's a filter. Let it be that filter for those people who are designed to work with you mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And are ready to work with you. Yeah. You know, I have this card on my, on my bookcase a little further down that says what does it say? Oh, yeah, you'll be too much for some people. Yeah. And they are not your people to remind me, you know that. Okay. You know, I'm not everybody's cup of tea, and that's fine because I will be for

some. Yeah. I love, that's fantastic. I absolutely love that you triggered something in my head that I'd just like to, to, to bring into the conversation before we wrap this up. And that's that for a lot of women, they also, you know, we're so used to trying to anticipate everybody's needs. And what they want. And so a lot of times what I see is that people, you know, they throw the price out there and then they're trying to anticipate the other person's reaction. I had a, another guest on here, Orna Lewis. She was on the show while, a few years back, but she said, get your mind outta other people's pockets. And I thought that was really useful. So that's another really good reason to stop talking.

Yeah. And, and don't say don't, don't say their No. Before they do. Right, right. Yeah. Let that happens a. Yeah, because you might be surprised. Yeah. And no, no isn't the end of the negotiation. No, it doesn't have to be. No. You know, sometimes it's the beginning even. Right. That's

right. So what's next for you and your business? I.

Hmm.

Wow. Great question. Well, I've got another course that I am working on right now that's gonna be coming out soon called Negotiation by Design. Mm-hmm. So it's taking one of my programs my flag flagship programs on negotiation for women actually, and bringing. Human design directly into the model. 'cause I've been using it a lot with clients and helping them to get clarity again. Right. On the, on where are their strengths, their superpowers, excuse me. And even how are they designed to make decisions in the best way for them, and how are they designed to interact with others and be heard by others? Mm-hmm. Their voice. There's a whole piece that goes into the human design blueprint if you're not familiar with it. And so it's not gonna. Be the dominant part, but it will be fed into it. So it's gonna become an integral part of, of working with negotiating with your design. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And even in terms of how others will be designed differently from you, which is also also key. Interesting. Even what your, the quote that you mentioned from your guest, you can't possibly know what's in their pocket really. Right. You can't possibly know what someone else has in their mind. No. And so, you know, it's a, it's about recognizing that, and we don't have to control that. Yeah,

we're just

here to influence what the outcome can be that would be ideally satisfactory to both of us. Yeah,

yeah. I also, I also always remind people, you know, how dare you, how insulting is that to somebody to, you know, to make the decision for you about what you can or cannot afford? Yeah, so super. I love the direction that you're heading there. If people would like to find out more about how to work with you or get more information about what you offer, where should they reach out to you?

Well, thanks. Thanks, Janene. I really appreciate that. Mm-hmm. I think the best way for people to, to find me and find out more about me, the easiest way is to come to LinkedIn. Okay. And just look up my name, Carrie Gallant. Mm-hmm. And you'll find me pretty much, I think, at the top of your Google, if you do Google wise. Or just on LinkedIn. LinkedIn and there's access to my website and, and dms and all that good stuff. That's a, a great place. I'm there pretty much every day.

Mm-hmm. Excellent. So we'll put the link to her LinkedIn profile and to her website and other places in the show notes for you. Carrie, thank you so much for, for joining me today. This was really a great conversation.

Well, thanks for having me, Janene. I had a lot of fun and all the best to you and your listeners. Excellent.

Thank you everyone for listening today. We were very happy to have you join us. I wish you all the best and as always, enjoy Pricing everyone