Pricing with Purpose: Building a Business That Works for You with Anna Lundberg

In this episode of Live With The Pricing Lady, I talk with Anna Lundberg. She's a coach and business mentor and founder of One Step Outside. She'll share with us her Pricing journey, for example, why Pricing clarity starts with defining what success really looks like. So sit back, relax, and enjoy the episode.

Welcome to Live with The Pricing Lady, I'm Janene, your hostess, where we turn Pricing confusion into clarity so you can grow and build your business with more confidence. Welcome, and today I'm super excited to have as a special guest, Anna Lundberg. Hello, Anna. Welcome. Hi Janene. Thanks so much for having me. Yes, I'm super excited. I wanted to share, before we get into the questions, I wanna share a few things that you had said about Pricing over the years, and there are a few things that you learned along the way We're gonna be talking about, which is why Pricing clarity starts with defining what success looks like. Also why competitors may not matter as much as you think. I'm looking forward to digging into these and some other topics with you today.

Great. Me too. I love a Pricing conversation. It's quite a prickly one. Obviously you've chosen a challenging one. It's a bit of an emotional one, but also an important one, so, looking forward to getting stuck in. All

right. Let's get to know you first. Where are you calling

from today? I am in pool, in d it, it's on the south coast of England. I can see the ocean just out there. Well, ocean, whatever it's called, the English Channel. A big boat there. Yeah. Nice. Two hours from London. It's, it's a very nice place. Don't tell anyone to see.

And

is

that where you were originally from

or? No, so originally, originally I'm from. Sweden. So my parents are both Swedish but I grew up outside of London, so I have been here all my life. But then I was in Switzerland for 10 years and then did the digital nomad thing for a few years. Unfortunately, as I say, sometimes met my partner who was in London and then we've settled out here by the sea for now, at least with our children.

Well, I can think of a lot worse places to be, so definitely lovely. Excellent. Anna, what would you describe as your superpower? I.

Oh, it's always a tough one, isn't it? To, to identify your own strengths. I always hated that in my corporate per performance reviews, so thanks for putting me on the spot. I like to think that I give people permission to articulate what they really want, because I think there's so much, and so many particularly business coaches are like, you've gotta do this. It's the webinar, or you've got to do a high ticket or group program, or not group program, et cetera. And I'd like to think that I'm quite rare in going, no, you don't. But the important thing is you need to figure out, as you just said there with the Pricing, what does success look like for you? And then, yes, we can choose the right path and, and they're experts who can show you a particular strategy, but it's so important to first figure out what, what you want. And I think most people kind of know that, but they don't dare to express it to themselves, let alone someone else. So I give them that space to admit their secret desires, and then of course, find a way to, to make it happen.

That's so important that people understand one, that they can do really within, you know, ethics and morals and things, whatever they want, to some degree, right? Important. Can't be at them. It's gotta be legal. It's gotta be legal. Exactly. But you know that, that really, there isn't a one size fits all answer. And yes, you're right that a lot of times that's the perception that we're given for sure. Next question, what's one interesting thing that most people don't know about you that you'd like to share with us today? Non-business related? I guess

it's up to you. Well, I, I've started sharing this a bit more often, so maybe you do know this if you've heard me, but I'm descended from a witch who was burned at the stake in in I want to say 16 hundreds Sweden. So my mom is very interested in ancestor research, and we've gone back and sadly, I guess she must have had. Children, because otherwise I wouldn't be here before she was burnt. But yeah, I sort of, yeah, I mean, let's not go down that rabbit hole, but it's an interesting story and I feel like I've got the powerful women in my blood, so I channel that ancestry. Well,

Both of my parents got into ancestry and my dad wrote us all, this was quite a few years ago, he about, a long lost relative who was repeatedly in the stockades for fornicating. Also

a great claim to

fame. There are worse crimes, so yes, a can can reveal some really interesting things. Alright, why don't you share with us a bit about your business and how you got started doing this? I.

Yeah, sure. So, I mean, without boring you with all the, the details of the full story, because of course there are so many twists and turns, but I'm, I want to say I'm the least entrepreneurial person you can meet, which, which I think is not true anymore, but at least it was never on my radar. So I'm sort of an accidental entrepreneur. Maybe a lot of us are, I didn't sort of dream of. Being a business owner. When I was younger it was very much, you know, my parents were quite academic and traditional career path and whatever that is really. But I, you know, I, I did as I was told, and I did school in university and got a good job. So I was in brand building and marketing at Proctor Gamble, big American company. Amazing. School to learn branding and, and marketing and to be honest, opened all the doors to what happened later. Mm-hmm. But there was always a bit of a disconnect. Again, I hadn't really dreamed of that path. It, it was just kind of an accidental career path. I think that's the case for a lot of us, perhaps. Mm-hmm. I studied one thing, ended up there, so I left there in 2013, not really knowing what I was doing. I kind of landed in consulting because at the time. My digital marketing skills were very much in demand. So that's how I began. But then I discovered coaching for selfish reasons, for my own personal development. And over time I kind of found a way to weave those things together. So I, I dreamed of what I call freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment. But of course, at the time, but I say of course, I was young and carefree. So at the time it was traveling the world and staying Airbnbs. Mm-hmm. And I did my coach training in Hawaii and learned to play the ukulele. And that was what that looked like then. Now it looks a bit different, as I said, with two young children and, and living by the sea, but of course, mm-hmm. That freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment, I think has still been a red thread. So, in a nutshell, to answer your question, I now help people do that. That same, I'd say, transition. It used to be actually helping people with that initial step, but now it's more people who are a few years down the line, but not quite realizing that potential. I suppose that we've, I always thought that, you know, you say, I quit and then ta-da, your. Best, most fulfilled life. And it turns out that's not the case. It's actually the bit that comes next. That's the hardest bit. And I think it's harder to break the patterns. Once you're there. You bring with you your old habits from corporate, you become your own worst boss. Mm-hmm. And you are working way too hard for way too little reward, and I don't like that. So my mission now is to really help experts who are incredibly good at what they do. They've got the experience, they've got the, you know, authority really. Right. But for whatever reason. They've just gotten locked into a business model that isn't quite delivering on the promise. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. When they started. So it's kind of recalibrating, right? You know, I'm running a session this week that's, that's work less earn and more, which feels like a ooh, really uncomfortably oversimplified message, but that's what it's about, right? It's earning more money without burning out, without, you know, compromising your health, your family relationships, and so on. So, of course, Pricing that you focus on is a really important part of that, because otherwise it's not going to deliver on your, your income targets.

Right, right. Now, one of the things that you had mentioned when we spoke before was this let's say this. Mindset of mutual exclusivity that you can either be fulfilled or earning money, but you can't do both. And I find that a, an interesting segue into talking about Pricing. Can you tell us more about your experience or your thoughts on that?

Yeah. I think that we are so often trapped in that really black and white extreme zero sum game that either we're the struggling freelancer over here. The creative is often the picture we have, right? We won't earn money doing something artistic. There's all those stories we've been told. Mm-hmm. I wanted to be a writer and I was told you'll never make money being a writer. And then there's the other side, which is the sort of I. Obviously, I don't want to be insulting to people, but the very successful business person you know, who is very sort of hardnosed and earning lots of money, but selling their soul because they're working in, let's say a bank or consulting or something like that. Even now with entrepreneurship, there are versions of that. There's still the hustling startup founder, oh, I work. 3000 hour weeks, but I love it kind of messaging.

Right?

And probably not earning so much money or earning, I don't know. There's, there's sort of both versions and then again, there's. There's a quite a belittling view of like, oh, it's a lifestyle business. Or often, often coaches, often women, I just want to help people. I don't need to earn so much money. Yeah. And then we end up in this kind of hobby charity mode where it's, you know, and it's sort of self. So I just, I like to question some of those boxes we put ourselves in. And, and I really rail against this like, you know, extraordinary success requires extraordinary effort and. Success requires sacrifice in all this. I think on whose terms? It's like we, right. We can decide on a version of success that actually involves being with our children. You know, I just volunteered at my daughter's school trip to a farm the other day. Mm-hmm. And also I'm ambitious and I want to do talks and, and earn money and go on holidays and things, you know, and those two are not mutually exclusive, so I think we just need to let go of those. Both outta date and also not very helpful labels and boxes and extremes, and just find the nuances between and make it possible to hold both.

I had my own version of that and I'm sure I'll discover more along the way, but mine was, I, because I left the corporate world in part due to a burnout and mine was, I can either be healthy or successful, but I can't be both, which is rubbish of the highest order.

Glad you said it, not me.

That's the sort of the Yeah, the thought process that was going on in my own head. Mm-hmm. It's important that you, that we bring that up and that we help people to recognize that those ways of thinking don't help us very much. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So, Anna, what was it like for you the first time you had to set a price for something in your business?

It's a good question. I was thinking back to this and it's hard, hard to remember, to be honest. The consulting, I have no idea how I came up with a rate, to be honest. I must have Googled it or something. There was no AI at the time, so my goodness, that would've been easier. So I actually have no idea with the initial consulting. Mm-hmm. I know that my first contract well I did some little entrepreneurship, entrepreneur mentoring kind of stuff, and then I did with a big company where I was actually paid sort of. All the hours I worked and there was a lot of overtime and travel, so that was very lucrative. And then another one where they explicitly said I was only paid for like the nine to five hours. So then I, I literally left the office at five. I was like, okay, okay, fine. So I think that was really good, but also. I, I landed on my feet a bit too easily because Okay. That was very lucrative and I earned more money than I was in my job. Whereas then came when I went into coaching mm-hmm. That's when it became really difficult because it was, I'm sure you know this from your, all the work that you do as coaches, we tend to go, oh, it's this much for an hour or this many hours, and that's how we start with the hourly Pricing and, and our coach training doesn't tell us. How to run a business. It just teaches us to be a great coach. We come out thinking, Hey, I'm a coach. Everybody paid me. And it doesn't quite happen that way. So I think that was a tricky moment when I, yes, a couple of very generous clients worked with me. Mm-hmm. Even though I was inexperienced and I put whatever price I did at the time. But I mean, yeah, it was a bit of a rude awakening to realize. Both, not to undercharge, but then also not there were all, it was all the messaging at the time I remember on Facebook, like mm-hmm. Oh, put your number down and then triple it. And then, you know, there were people who were charging like 50 K and I was like, I'm just a new coach. I do, you know, so there's, there's the, again, there's the two extremes actually. There's the, oh, do it all for free. You're helping people $50 an hour kind of thing. And then there's a. Oh, you should be charging VP, high ticket, blah, blah, blah. You know? And it's just this, depending on who you're with, I suppose. Like with my sister who works in heritage, we call it like museums and things. She's always like, and maybe it's limiting beliefs as we say in coaching, but she says, you know, you just can't charge those big numbers. And she, she would be appalled if she heard some of the numbers I said. Mm-hmm. But then in other circles,

right,

people are like, of course you charged. Yeah, that's a half million. Contract, whatever, and that's, you know, so it's just, I guess that suggests to you that it's important to move in the right circles because you will, there's no right price. Right? It's just finding the people and the value. And what feels good to you and yeah,

what feels good to you and what's appropriate for what you offer and who you're targeting it with. I think that's one of the things that I see with a lot of people is they are trying, they're casting a wide net, trying to catch anyone. Yeah. And in the process they're, what they're offering and how they're positioning it. It really doesn't, it's like a one size fits all t-shirt. You know, it's, it's okay if we're sleeping in, but you wouldn't really wear it for much else.

I think we also get caught, caught in the middle ground because we kind of get, oh, I should charge more, but then we're not quite confident enough, so we go in the middle. And so it's too cheap for the people who wanna pay more and they don't think you're good enough, but it's also too much for the people to be a no-brainer. So you're stuck in that kind of, nobody can kind of, or wants pay that amount. So yeah, I think you either need to go sort of lower and. You know, bigger quantity or you go higher, but then you only need a handful of clients. I think again, in between actually that's one of the cases where maybe the extremes is more useful than the the middle ground.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You're right about that. Many entrepreneurs, they struggle with this whole topic of Pricing. And it can be, they're, they're very new to it. They're years into their business and they're still struggling. How do you help the people that you work with, their Pricing journey? What is it that you really focus on that you think helps them get on a path that brings them towards where they wanna go?

So I guess, I think there's two parts to it. One is I. The strategy and then the other is the mindset. Mm-hmm. Because obviously we've got all the imposter syndrome and mm-hmm. Could I possibly charge that much? And what, you know, oh, they've got much more experience than me. So that's one piece that we need to work on. Mm-hmm. You know, we have like a little confidence jar or confidence folder where you keep all your right. The external validation you get, but every testimony, every positive thing, like all the certificate, you remind yourself of how amazing you are. Mm-hmm. When you get a bit of a wobble and those kinds of things I think are important. From a strategy perspective, you know, you mentioned there again, the definition of success from a big picture perspective, what do you want? So again, the people I work with often, they say, you know, I don't wanna be a thought leader. I just want to be a respected expert in my field. So I say. And maybe this will change, but for now, I don't need to be a Brene Brown or a Simon sin. It's hugely complex and it's a very different kind of stage. Right. I want to be known in my space mm-hmm. Big enough to charge enough and enjoy my work and dah dah. Mm-hmm. And so that's, you know, defining the, the big picture of what do you want your business to look like? I wanna work term time to take, sorry. In, in England it's called terms rather than semesters. So, you know, to have the holidays off with the kids, those types of things. And this is how much I want to earn. Mm-hmm. With Pricing. I've always really started with, you know, you mentioned there, I said, okay, let's not pay too much attention to competitors. Because really it starts with you and I, you know, I think I chatted with you about this the other day that let's say I want to earn a hundred KA year, whatever currency. Mm-hmm. I'm working 200 days a year. Half of those are business development, admin, accounting. So I've got a hundred days a year. That means that my so-called day rate has to be a thousand. Right. And I call that my sort of integrity rate. That's what I wanna be earning to really hit my goals. This is, and I'm making that number up, but it's just an easy math number for me. Mm-hmm. I do that all the time. Yeah. At some point I should do a number that's harder and I pretend that I can do the maths in my head, but the gone are those days when I can do mental arithmetic. My teacher would be yeah. Crying wherever he is today. But you, you work out that that's the race I need to have to feel like, yeah, this is, you know, I'm valued. I'm, I'm hitting my goals, you know, sometimes a bit under, sometimes it's over, but on average, kind of, you're going to be not just breaking even, you're also going on holidays with your family. You've got the gym, you've got the whatever else. Now, there's also your resentment rate, which is if you go below that. First of all, it might even be that, you know, you're not even gonna be able to pay your bills and live, so that's a no go. But there's a race of which you, you know, you're just gonna feel like, oh, I can't believe Janene is making me do this work and I don't wanna show up to this call. You know, that sort of, you don't wanna go there. So I think, let's say a thousand pounds is the day then, I don't know, 500, 300, you can get to decide where that is. And if you're a beginner, it might be a lower number. Right? So when you're kind of proactively quoting things and Pricing things, mm-hmm. You need to make sure you're at or above. That 1000 mark

mm-hmm.

For your core things. Mm-hmm. But that's not to say that behind closed doors, if, if Janene goes, Hey, can you do this thing for me next week at 600 pounds? I'll be like, yes, sure. Because it's above my resentment rate. Right, right. So I think for me, it start, it's not to say that I get to decide the Pricing and it has nothing to do with the rest of the world, but if it's a business that works for you. Then it needs to work for you. So then of course, the question is, okay, who are the clients who can and are willing to pay that? Mm-hmm. What is the value I can put into this offer? What result can I help them get? But you have to know those numbers. You have to know what your integrity rate is and your resentment rate, because otherwise. What if, if you say to me, or if a client comes to me and says, oh, what's the right price? Who knows? There's no right price. You tell me like, what are your expenses? What's your desired lifestyle? What are your, you know, how many hours do you want to work? There's so many factors to that. So that's, that's where like looking at someone else's website mm-hmm. We can get all caught up and oh my gosh, Janene charges this much, and, but she's so much more experienced. But who knows? Behind closed doors you have zero clients and nobody knows because you know, one. You only see what they share on social media. You only see, and even if they have clients, maybe they have a really lean team. They've only got a cat at home. They don't have the eight children and the five in private school and the Tesla and whatever else you have. So your expenses are slightly higher. So it's so personal. So of course there are, and I know you share it, so much wisdom around, you know how you can price, but ultimately it's very individual to the nature of success and the nature of your business model and your family as so, yeah.

One of the things I find with a lot of women when they look at their price setting is they try to be fair to everybody else, but they forget themselves in the process. And so, you know, by having, by starting with, okay, where do you want to get to with your own business? Then you, you kind of put yourself in the forefront of, that thought process. That you can be more fair to yourself while you're being fair to everybody else as well. Mm-hmm.

And by the way, it's really hard. I mean, I literally, a couple of minutes before I came on here, got an email from someone who had been talking about joining my accelerator program. She said, I'm really sorry. I'm not earning any money. I just can't spend that money right now. And it's so hard. Yeah. Because I know that she would get results if she only joined. And of course, actually I've been in that situation so many times. Sometimes I have overpaid for a program and regretted it. Mm-hmm. I mean, you also learn something always. Yeah. But always I've been okay if I'm paying 1500 for this program. What do I need to make that possible? Well, I need to make sure I get one coaching client or like two workshops or whatever that is. And you have to make it happen. Exactly. But, but I could in that situation, oh my gosh, no worries. I'll, I'll charge you half price or I'll give it to you for free. And that unfortunately isn't fair to everyone else who's paid full price. It's not fair to her because it means she's not then fully invested in it. You know, so there are some really difficult things when you just know something's gonna help someone.

Right. But

unfortunately, you don't, you know, they, they have to choose and they have to feel right for them.

Yeah. I think it's also a readiness factor.

Yeah.

And there's a time and place for whatever resources, you know, someone needs. There's a, and there's

so many free resources for me too. I've got podcasts. I'm running a free session I can send her to go to, like, it's not like I just have to say, and

even nowadays, it's, I mean, you can gather free resources is a lot easier than you used to be. You can definitely,

I mean, all the information is there and that's also why I work more with people in terms of accountability and implementation and a sounding board, because yes, you can get any information. Now, my whole book is probably online. You know, you could get it for nine to nine p or free. I don't know. You. I've got six years of podcast episodes you could listen to. There's a lot of, if you just applied everything I've ever said, I'm sure you'd be richer than I'm for sure, but, you

know. Now it does, you know, you don't have to go through each and every episode all on your own and trying to figure out what's this and what's bad. I mean, there's, yeah, it still requires time and effort, don't get me wrong. And you still have to understand how to apply those things. 'cause it's not always, you know, what seems to you or I obvious isn't always obvious to everyone else. Mm-hmm.

No. And it's also, it's easy for me to say this about someone else's that as soon as it's my own, it's much harder. Right. Because you just, you're so deep in the nuances of it and your own personal emotions and things, so it's easier to help someone else than it is to help yourself always.

Absolutely. I recently, I've made a few posts about Pricing in ai and you know, one thing that I'm very clear about is that yes, there's a, a place for using AI to support your Pricing strategy, but there are some very specific things that it can't really account for. Like your readiness to charge that much, or how strongly you believe in that price that it's saying you should charge, right? Yes. So it's, you know, it's all, it's about putting all that information into context so that you can make the best decisions possible for where you are currently. I think that's also a big point.

Yeah, I've done that with chat. Bt I've exam said, what would it take to get to this number? And it all sounds very doable, but I'm like, I don't really believe that I can get there right now. So definitely it's, it's easy enough to, oh, you just charged them this much. I'm like, okay, chat. Bt satisfied. It's not quite working like that, but it's still, it's useful exercise to do because it makes you realize, yeah, I'm not gonna get there with my. $50 an hour coaching sessions or my 500 pound VIP days or whatever, like you can tell that it's not gonna add up to where you want to be, which is useful maths. If the math isn't math, then you need to rethink the model.

Yeah. Yeah. I, that's, I think we've both seen that. I mean, with some clients you're like, you go right in and you're like, okay. They don't yet see like finance or the finances in their business, let's start there. And with someone else, it might be, they don't really see how it's possible for anybody to charge this much. So you might start with that element of it first. And so I always find it interesting 'cause it's so varied by the client. Hmm. Okay. Let's see. I am just looking at my notes here and. If there were like, some feedback or advice that you'd like to give people when it comes to their own challenges with Pricing what would you, what would you share with them?

I think I said there is no right answer, which is frustrating, but hopefully reassuring in that as much as you know, you or I can help to guide through and we can probably land at maybe a better number. Mm-hmm. We won't know until we put it out there and actually ask people to, to buy the thing. And you know, when we worked, when I worked in the big company, we would have that too. That we would do Pricing research and focus groups. But it's one thing to say, yeah, sure, I'll pay that. And your friends and family go, oh, that sounds amazing. No problem. But it's another, when you put up, you know Daniel Priestly at the moment is really big here in the uk. Mm-hmm. And he always talks about a waiting list. He's got software and stuff to, to support you doing that. Fine. I mean, it's, it's a mm-hmm. Process that's been around for a long time, but it's super smart because you put up a page, you go, Hey, I'm thinking of doing this thing. Are you interested? Would you pay? You know, and then actually he even says, put a question like, would you pay this, that, and the other? And his story goes, when he launched his latest book AI software. Mm-hmm. That actually they were thinking of charging much lower number because so many people said they expected to pay much more. They went for a higher fee. So great. Right. That's a really tangible thing. People are giving their email address saying, I actually want to do this thing, or, or even, yeah. Running a free event, running a workshop for 30 bucks and just seeing if they'll join that. Mm-hmm. It's you, you've gotta put it out there and then recalibrate obviously, if, right. And, and the problem I suppose, is that if, if nobody signs up, you might say, oh, it's the price. But it could be the messaging or it could be, you know, so that's the hard to know, tricky part of it. But just to say that we're all kind of, to some extent fumbling in the dark. There's no right answer. But, but you know what works for you. Mm-hmm. In terms of, in order to make a living, I need to be earning this much. So therefore you need to make those numbers work. So whether you need to then add more value to it or target it to a different, more affluent client or have more clients, you know, those are the. Yeah, recalibrations we can make, but we need to start somewhere to that. And if you, if you talk to 50 people and every single one says it's too expensive, then you know that, you know, either it is too expensive or you're talking to the wrong people. Whereas sometimes I guess we just talk to two people, we get a bit nervous. And pull back. And we don't actually have the data to say if it's the price, if it's something else. Right. Whereas if you hear consistent messaging across the board. Or the other thing is if you work with corporate, some people say, you know, if they say yes right away mm-hmm. You know, probably you've gone too low. So next time you add like 20% to something, you know, that's just each time you, it's a bit of a tapestry of moves. You're not gonna go from zero to making the. 250 KA year, whatever it is you want to make. But each time you're like a little bit more there and a little bit more there. And then you're gradually, you know, getting to place and sometimes you take a bigger leap. Maybe if you've maybe got some new certification or if you feel like, you know, I've got a lot more experience now, or you've developed a new framework that's giving lots of value, you've got lots of testimonials, then you can feel perhaps like it warrants a bigger price increase. Right. So there is no right answer. That's my wisdom. There you go. Sorry. There is no right answer.

Yeah, there's, I always tell people when they and repricing question almost. Everyone, when people ask it, you can start with by asking first who, who's your target customer?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, in my gamble days questions, R-A-C-E-O used to say consumer is boss. And it was all, it all started with the consumer and who's the consumer and what are the insights, what's the problem you're solving and so on. So that's deeply ingrained in my psyche to start with that.

Exactly. Okay. Why don't we start wrapping this up. I kind of already asked this question, but. Maybe you have a different answer now. What's one takeaway you'd like people to walk away with our convers walk away with from our conversation today? Huh? Jingle. Yeah.

I guess it, it links to us, so I said there's no right answer, but then define what success looks like. And that sounds really lofty, and it's like, oh, I need a vision statement or something you can put on a mark is like, no. In fact, actually what I came up with, I, I need to remember that was in my, book sort of three P. So one is your practical parameters. Mm-hmm. So that's like your criteria, like, okay, I need to be earning this much and you know, I need to be only working these many hours and so on. Mm-hmm. You've got your personal preferences, which is like, oh, I really love working in groups or with big companies or startups or individuals, whatever it is. And then you've got more, your purpose, which is your Ikigai, or like the real impact you wanna be making, the meaning and so on. So thinking of those three criteria mm-hmm. And kind of filtering. Work through that can really help you as well. It doesn't have to be, yes. Some big thing you've got on a poster like successes and people have got on a quote card they'll share on Instagram. No. The point is that you need to know what enough looks like. Like I need to be earning this. But beyond actually, you know, there's probably a range. Mm-hmm. And to be honest, I'm in a phase where I'm a bit like, oh, I'm curious as to how can I push it more. I've been a bit. Limited limiting myself maybe. Mm-hmm. And that's interesting. But doing it for the right reasons, being intentional about it and not just thinking, I've gotta grow, I've gotta scale. I've got to, you know, more and more, more forgetting that we probably started this business, at least in the case of me and my clients for more time freedom. Mm-hmm. Flexibility, fun. Yes. Finance is a part of that. Mm-hmm. But we mustn't forget the other Fs as well. Correct. So define what success looks like and then build from there. I love that.

Excellent. Is there a book or a podcast or something that you're listening to right now that you're finding. Compelling that you'd like to share with us?

Well, I'm, I mean, it's sort of unrelated but also very related. Mm-hmm. It's well, I finished 4,000 weeks by Oliver Berkman and his new one, I want to say is called Meditations for Mortals, and you're supposed to read one page a day. So it's taken me a few months because I read one page a week. I forget about it, but I come back to it. But he is really questioning the whole time management thing. Basically. He's saying we, we are. Mortal life is finite, as we know life is short, but you're never gonna get round to reading all the books. You're never going to be that perfect person who plays the piano for 10 minutes every day. So just go and play the damn piano right now. You know? And I think there's something around that. I think I. I've always been so goals oriented and future oriented, and my focus now is being present and just, okay, right now I'm having a really interesting conversation here. I'd hate it if my kids were banging on the door. 'cause then I'd feel like I'm neither with them nor with you. Right? So now I make sure I do these calls, like when they're not outside banging on the door. Likewise, if I'm with them, I'm, you know, as Father's Day for us as we record this and I was with. The family and we were present and I wasn't like checking Instagram the whole time, but I think it's just being present for me is really key. Mm-hmm. In that book, 4,000 Weeks Oliver Berkman, it just, yeah. Basically 4,000 weeks of your life, a lot of that is spent sleeping, eating, et cetera, you know, so when you realize how precious every moment is, you may be, make different choices in terms of how you're spending it.

I love that. Excellent. Okay. We'll put a link to that in the show. Next last question, if people would like to reach out and find out more about how to work with you, where can we send them?

Well, I think actually, given what we've talked about, what could be interesting is a resource that I have. Mm-hmm. So if you go to one step outside.com/intentional business, and I know you'll put it in the show notes as well, but one step outside.com/intentional business. Mm-hmm. And it's a simple little PDF audit. Audit sounds like a very serious word, but it's just checking in on where are you on your energy, your income, you know, do you enjoy working with your clients? And it just lets you maybe identify some gaps. You know, it could be, and I spoke to someone this morning and actually. Her life is, is sort of perfect except for the income bit, in which case, okay, let's look at Pricing and business one and so on, right? But then for a lot of people it's rather, you know, I actually, the income is good, but I'm not enjoying the clients I'm working with, for example. But just know, sometimes you don't stop, you just know something's off, but you're not sure what it is. So I think that really helps you. And then to, from there, from that base of understanding, you can then build intentionally in a direction that's gonna get you closer to where you want to be. I hope that's useful.

Excellent. Yes. We'll put that in other links so that you can connect with Anna in the show notes. Anna, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a real pleasure having this conversation with you.

Thank you. Such a good conversation. Such an important topic, and I hope there was some nuggets in there for people to, to reflect on and, and take forwards. Thanks, Janene. Absolutely.

Alright. Thank you everyone who is listening. We appreciate you being here with us today. If you have any questions or you'd like to reach out to Anna or myself, you'll find the information in the show notes. Have a great day, and as always, enjoy Pricing.