US Expats in France: Real Life After 8 Years and What to Expect

Welcome to Passport to Wealth. I'm your host, Arielle Tucker, certified financial planner and fellow U.S. expat. On this show, we bring together cross-border experts and global Americans to help you make confident decisions about your life, your money, and your next move abroad.

Let's get started. Hey, welcome back to Passport to Wealth. You might be able to tell I'm not Arielle Tucker.

My name is Jessica Govern, and I'm actually the podcast producer for Passport to Wealth. And I'm an American who has lived in France for eight years. I'm joined today with Claire Naughton, who also lives in France and supports the Passport to Wealth marketing team on the marketing strategy side of things.

So great to be here and get into everything. So we're going to kick off with some fun facts, because obviously it's the first time that we're meeting all of you, and more importantly, you're meeting us. So the most important thing to know is that Jess and I both met in Strasbourg, but we actually grew up 45 minutes away from each other in the Chicagoland area.

So that's just a little fun fact we love to whip out because it just kind of encapsulates this whole crazy travel expat story. And Jess can actually give a little more color because it was an Instagram post that brought us together. And that's something that happens more often than you would think when you move abroad and everybody's looking for friends and trying to get those social engines spinning.

A little pro tip for anybody looking to make friends abroad, tag your locations when you're like taking fun little pictures in your city. That's how I found Claire, I tagged our famous cathedral here. And I wanted to see how my post was performing on the geotag.

And one of Claire's photos came up, I instantly saw the caption like happy birthday to my other Illinois girl. And I was like, I'm an Illinois girl. And I reached out to them and they are now my two closest friends in France.

So don't be afraid to shoot your shot on Instagram, slide in those DMs. Pro tip. We'll get you more pro tips.

I'm being broad later. But I love that story. And I feel like it just like continues to resonate the longer you live abroad.

So today we're actually going to be talking about life in France. It's very apropos as small business owners. And we're going to go over some of the major pluses and maybe some of the drawbacks that we noticed living here long term just because we know a lot of people are in the US planning to move abroad.

But there might also be some other people not in the US but also not in France and maybe thinking about moving to France or even thinking about moving countries. And that is definitely something that you do the longer you live in one place outside of the US to the kind of urge to explore and see what life in another country might be like never really ends. So and then just for fun, we'll talk about like how we might do it differently if we were to move abroad again, all over.

Since we both did it when we were pretty, pretty young, pretty young, pretty young and pretty ad hoc. Yeah, since the audience doesn't know us, I think we should probably start with some intros. And I can go first for that.

So as I said, my name is Jess. I'm the podcast producer for this, but I also do social media management. I have a small business here in France doing social media management and marketing.

I'm originally from Chicago, moved abroad three days after graduating college with just a backpack to Greece, and I was doing some nonprofit work there. Then I headed to Serbia. And then back to Greece.

That's where I met my now husband. And I followed him to France, where we now live. And we have had a child here.

We have a dog named Baguette. Yeah, really built my entire adult life and career here in France abroad. Sometimes I wonder what what life would be like even for me in the States, because the last time I was there, I was in college.

And that's like a whole different world. So my whole adult life has really been in Europe. So yeah, Claire, what about you? Yeah, I mean, cosigning the growing up in Europe thing, right? Because like, you can be an adult when you turn 18.

But like, you are not adulting until technically when you leave college. But like, you're kind of you're kind of learning to adult, right? So yeah, so like we said earlier, right, Jess and I are from similar areas in the US. I grew up in the northwest suburbs of Illinois, Chicagoland area.

And so here in France, right now, I own a business as a fractional CMO and marketing agency. So small business structure in France. But before that I was freelance writing.

My degree was originally in English literature and creative writing. And that is not super compatible with any sort of traditional French employment. So it was very challenging.

And it is not something that I would like strictly recommend. But it's definitely possible to, in my experience, build a successful self employment career abroad. And so that's the professional side of things.

But then like what actually brought me to France, again, similar to Jess, after I graduated college, so my undergrad, about 10 days later, I moved to Peru and was traveling around, met my now husband who is French, went back to the US for about six months and just kind of did that thing where you don't know what you want to do. So my MO is to work, you know, basically just built up a little savings pot of like nanny jobs and some like freelance marketing jobs. I worked at David's Bridal and then moved to Paris in 2018.

But most of my sort of expat journey as we call it has been in Strasbourg where I moved in 2019. And that's that's where I've been since. And what else we've got a couple of cats here.

So a cat person, but still love and appreciate dogs. And yeah, that's kind of the little life that we have. We have here for us.

But as you said, this is not just about introducing ourselves is about talking about the pros and cons of people who have been here for a little while. So without further ado, Jess, do you want to dive into some of the pros and cons of living in France for the long term that we can now claim to have? Yeah, for sure. I mean, starting with the obvious things, healthcare here is great.

All the social protections, obviously, you know, I mean, those things, I think, if you know anything about France, go without saying, I specifically want to talk about maternity care, though, because this is a huge one for me. I mentioned I have a daughter, I had her here in Strasbourg, and I had a very complicated pregnancy. I don't want to get into all of those details or anything.

But it was very touch and go from the beginning. And some things that just shocked me to my core as an American was at around, I think it was four and a half months pregnant, they decided that I needed to have like everyday care to check on the health of the baby. And they sent midwives to my house every single day to come do like a heart rate check of the baby, monitor my health.

It was just so, so encouraging. And it helped, you know, reduce the anxiety of my pregnancy so much. And then even in, like when it was time, we had to induce her early because things were getting unsafe for her.

And even that whole process in the hospital was so good. And the best part about it was the only thing I had to pay for all of this for all of this intensive care, including I stayed in the hospital two weeks after she was born, which was so tiny, we paid 25 euro for parking. So at the hospital, that was that was all I paid for for my whole pregnancy.

So I really want to give a shout out to maternity care here. It is unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life in terms of health care, just like how hands on it was, how amazing all of the providers were. So that is a cool experience I had and will always, always, always, always be so grateful for because the condition my I faced, my mother had before having me and she lost a baby over it.

So I am so grateful that I had the health care that I did, because I don't know if it would have existed for me anywhere else on earth. I can't, can't claim that. Other things I do appreciate is just the pace of life here is really nice.

If you're, especially if you're not a freelancer, you work like a normal French job, they have an amazing work life balance. And I see it with my husband, like an email, a phone call does not find him after 4pm. On any given day, he has half days on Fridays, five weeks vacation.

I mean, anytime you stick, even if he's just like, he's like, I'm gonna go to the doctor and he gets that off. So that's super cool for him. I don't live in that reality.

But that's my own fault, because I own my own business. And I'm sure Claire can attest to that as well. Which could also go into maybe if I'm starting to transition into cons, man, being a small business owner can be really tough here.

We just don't have the same, like worker rights, that would be a con for me don't want to get too into that. But another con for me, the biggest con for me is as I've gotten older, I've really realized like how much weather affects my energy and my mood. And it is so gray here.

I lived previously in Breton and now I live in El Sasse. And they are both so gray for a good chunk of the year. And I just really feel like I get bogged down by that kind of negative energy, as well as I also have realized as I've, I mean, I've always known this about myself.

But as I've gotten older, I've really realized the way in which like community affects my energy too. And I just feel like I'm meant to be in like, loud communities that don't take themselves too seriously. And the French bless them, but they take themselves so seriously.

Yeah, that's just a personality difference. Again, it's nothing wrong with them. I'm not saying it's wrong or bad or whatever.

It's just different for me, because I always feel like, even when I do something that feels so normal in my brain, if I'm like out at a bar or coffee shop, it's instantly like all heads on me. And then I just want to like crawl in a little hole. But what about you, Claire? What are some pros and cons that you've experienced living here now for so long? Yeah, I mean, I think like you hit on the big three, right? And I think just going backwards, because of the recent CFX, like that's what's on my on my mind right now.

And then also, right, you know, maybe get the not so positive feedback for France out of the way. And then I'll go into the positives. But yeah, I, it's funny, because I know you and I have talked about this a lot off mic before, just like that feeling that France is, they hold you to a really high standard, and they hold themselves to a very high standard.

And that starts from literally the moment the child is born, and especially the moment the child goes into school, and I don't have a daughter in the system or a son or anything like that. I don't have a child in the system. But, you know, I've seen you and other friends of mine here who are very in the thick of that.

And so just kind of getting that like second degree understanding, even more deeply than somebody who is, you know, still living here and has like the very valid experience of finding it challenging as someone that comes from a culture that is very stereotypically, but it is so true when you're in France, optimistic, you're always finding the bright side of things. If you're not finding the bright side of things, your inclination is to find a solution. Like, just that kind of quick thinking in the positive direction, because the French are quick thinking, they just sometimes go in the other direction, is something that does really wear on you over time.

But I think the personality comment that Jess made was really interesting, because I think I am like a deeply perfectionistic person. And I enjoy when I understand what the standards are. I think what surprises me about France is that the standard is like literally perfection.

And so all of French culture is just accepting that you will never be perfect. And again, going back to the school system, which I have some familiarity with through my husband who did all of his schooling through his PhD is perfection does not exist. And so again, that is like kind of counter to American spirit, right? Like maybe we acknowledge perfection doesn't exist.

But we respect the hustle and the grind and the energy to pursue it. And in France, that is very much not the case. I guess I would say not the norm.

You know, there may be certain environments that try to foster it, but that hasn't been mine. And then, yeah, I guess that going, you know, kind of just segue into a more positive element of that, like that does lead to the better work life balance. And I will say the French do work hard in the hours that they're at work, like that can be something that that happens.

It's not necessarily in like the public administration jobs where I'm encountering a lot of them. But my husband assures me that there are there is a lot of hard work and good work happening during the work hours, which are, you know, those 30 I think it's like 35 hour a week contracts or 39 depending on those kind of two standard ones. And so yeah, that does lend itself like they have great worker protections here.

They have mental health burnout, you know, they do rupture conventionelle, which is like a conventional rupture in English, which basically means you negotiate your exit from a permanent job or a lot of things that you kind of learn as you go here, but the French know from birth. And so all of that lends itself to a better work life balance because it's very unapologetic, like they know their rights, they know their contracts, and they are going to follow those. And so that is something I respect as coming from a culture that has very poor work life boundaries historically.

And, you know, as a self employed person having to kind of figure out how to set those boundaries. So you're right, like not only being Americans, speaking for both of us, but not only being Americans, but also being self employed, like that's kind of like the creme de la creme of not having boundaries. And so being in a culture and being able to see it firsthand to be like, okay, so these can exist.

And there's a really cool cultural overlap that happens there. So I think that's a huge pro, right? Like seeing that it exists and being like, how can I integrate this into my own life in a way that that works? And then yeah, the healthcare one for me as well, I think I've, I think the application is more theoretical for me, because I haven't had a serious health issue here. But I do come from a family with a whole host of very serious healthcare issues that like, in the US, you go to the doctor normally and they just say, Oh, you know, what's your family history, if it's not somebody you've seen, and then they just kind of note it all down and go about the exam.

And that's that. So I was shocked when I moved to the neighborhood we did. We are here in Strasburg right now, I changed doctors.

And so when I went in for that first appointment, she did that standard intake. And I listed the litany of things. Oh, you know, this aunt had thyroid cancer, this grandma had breast cancer.

Oh, yeah, no, I think she died of that, actually. Oh, and then my grandpa had this, my uncle had this, my mom had this, like truly so many things that, again, as an American, I think feel a little bit natural. Like we pretty much, I think most of the people that I know have some sort of family history of like one of the major things, be it cancer or anything else.

And so she took all of that. And then I literally left with a stack of ordinals. So like the, like a document that says you need to go and see this other doctor or get this prescription.

In my case, it was to see a bunch of doctors. And the one that really stood out to me was this cardio test because my dad had a really bad health scare with his heart earlier than he should have. And thank goodness he was okay.

But my doctor here was like, a healthcare system here is preventative. So we and like, because it's socialized healthcare, so we are all contributing to it, right? As Jess said, like, whether you're a freelancer, you're fully employed, you are contributing to that system. The goal is actually not to put you in the hospital, which is the exact opposite of the US, but they don't care because the insurance companies run everything here because it is socialized.

And because literally, it's on the government's purse strings, every single person that goes through it, and effectively the taxpayers, right, taxpayers, government, sick people, their MO is to keep you out of the hospital in the first place, and B, have an understanding of what might be coming down the pipe for you in the future. And so again, going back to the cardio example, or cardiology example, I went and did this test that in the US, I know would be hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, depending on if you have insurance or not, or whatever. And I was, it was so shocking to me, because you just walk in, you say what you're there for, like, there's no money, there's no card, besides your, you know, standard healthcare card, the government issues you here.

And so you know, the whole time, you're kind of like, when do I pay? What do I do? No, no, no, here's your healthcare card, they scan that, you go to the appointment, you do the test, and then they tell you the result will be out. And you know, you can just go on your merry way. Like there is no money involved so often when you have gone to your general practitioner here, and they have said you need this.

So I guess that's maybe a little pro tip is like a lot of Americans and maybe foreigners in general, like, oh, the healthcare system, quote unquote, is so cheap here. And so they just kind of go directly to the specialist to save time or whatever that may be. But I think it's just good practice.

And also just like, you know, it will help you integrate better if you understand how the system works. And like, that will, you know, just make it easier long term. So a big pro con bubble kind of wrapped in like, you know, it all boils down to your willingness to integrate and understand the system long term.

I think we both moved here, essentially, for love, right? Like, that's how that was our segue into moving to France. And we were both quite young. And every week, Ariel has guests on that say, like, plan before you move, like call us before you come.

That's like always their ending little tidbit of advice. And I can speak personally for myself that I did not do that. I literally just like showed up.

And I remember my husband and I went to the Marie address and we're like, we want to get married. But both of us are immigrants in this country. We have no documentation.

And I really thought like, if I got married, I'd just be able to stay forever. Joke's on me. We got married and they were still like, you gotta go.

You have to like go back and still apply for visas. You can't just like, do that all here. But I do want to know Claire, if you were to do your move differently, where would you want to move? Flash? How would you do your move in general different? Oh, okay.

So big questions. And I feel like I did talk about this a little bit on another episode. So I want to make sure that I'm not double dipping.

And if people really want to dig into like, my story, as I'm going to summarize it, that is on building a life abroad career visas and entrepreneurship. So to try and separate that a little bit, I think like, I always caveat my quote unquote advice is like, I slash we did it really young, right. And so a lot of the people that are planning to move abroad these days, like there are a lot of young people, but there's just there's no real archetype anymore.

Like, you know, you could be 22, you could be 42, you could be 72, like, and people are interested in moving all US people are interested in moving all over the world right now. And so I think that's really cool. And you can, it's true, you can do dumb stuff when you are young and get away with it to an extent in a way that you can't.

So that's why this podcast is so cool to write because it focuses on the finances and things like that. And so I think if I were going to move abroad again today, like and if I were to do it differently, I think one of the most important call outs is like, I somehow had the foresight and the somehow is my dad, thank you, dad for always being in my corner and encouraging me to think about things like finances, even when you're in your 20s. And you're like, I don't want to do that right now.

Before I moved to France, I got a travel credit card. And then I got a I opened a Roth IRA account. And the Roth specifically ended up being a great choice because France is one of the few countries that recognizes the benefits of the Roth, generally speaking.

So and I'm not an expert on that, like, you know, qualified to speak beyond that. But that is something worth knowing and exploring further on your own because you can still contribute to your Roth IRA if you are earning income in France, even if you're a US person, even if your clients are outside of France, even you know, blah, blah, blah, if you are a tax resident in France, and you have an open Roth IRA account in the US, you can continue to contribute to that. And so that ended up being a really grounding thing for me here when you kind of start to spiral and feel like you need to be doing adult things, you know, like, I was like, Oh, I can, I can do this thing.

There is something I can do. And so yeah, that was maybe a big part of my move to France in a weird way, because like, there are all these really adult administrative questions that kind of start to weigh on you. And again, going zooming out again, and how like, there are all these people that are moving from the US that are like, I already have Roth, I already have accounts, like, you know, and I'm still trying to figure it out.

Again, the caveat is, get your docs in a line before you go. But the very important docs, there are going to be a lot of other ones that pop up and want your attention, and you know, will kind of hold you back from doing it. But when I think about moving abroad, again, is that the right term from France moving abroad from France moving outside of France, I guess, I think about like, maybe the people that I want to be around right now and the stage of life.

So France has been really cool and really special because you know, all the people that I've met, and you meet people from all walks of life when you move abroad young and you're just kind of bumbling around meeting people that are just like you trying to figure it out meeting people that are retired and are just like so happy to be there. And you're like, well, maybe one day, I'll have it figured out and can just be relaxed somewhere and then other people that are working and raising their families and etc, etc. So you know, that framing really makes a difference.

And so at this stage in my life, when I think about where I want to go, it's challenging, because I don't feel like I've spent enough time in any one country. And like, you know, the the stereotypes, you see the articles like the best places to live if you're a digital nomad, or where all the US people are moving, or what have you. But I think my like North Star when I think about places to live is like, where makes financial sense for an American, you know, like, where can I be self employed? Is it not a hassle? Am I not going to be charged insane tax rates? And by insane, I don't mean I want like tax evasion, per se.

But I mean that like, when you are earning, what in the US would be a respectable but not an insane amount of income. So call it anywhere between like 70 and 150k probably, like that range is puts you in the highest tax brackets in Europe, and sometimes even lower than that 70k depending on the country, or maybe all of them. My point is that I would want to go somewhere that's a little bit more tax friendly to business growth and has that spirit of entrepreneurship.

And in a way that I'm really grateful to have found in Jess, but as we've talked about, like, you know, the pros of France and the cons of France do not necessarily add up to a picture of somebody that is or an environment that is super like, hard charging, trying to grow your business type of type of environment. And that's okay, because there are a lot of things that go for it. But the weather weighs on me a lot.

So somewhere with sun, somewhere with different like variations and seasons would be great. Where would you go if you were to move abroad again? And how would you think about making that decision? I mean, for me, I really put zero so like I can 100% from I put zero thought into moving abroad, I was supposed to go for three months to Greece, and then I was supposed to come back and start a master's. And I just like abandoned all and just kept going with the flow, right? Like I could only stay three months in Greece.

So then I went to Serbia, you know, you could leave Serbia for a day and come right back in. I mean, I was truly just like, learning as I went along, like what the rules were, what the structures were, I was living on a budget of like, zero dollars. I really Yeah, I mean, I had no planning in my move.

And then I obviously just like, met Robin, my husband and fell in love and just really wanted to do anything just to be able to stay together. And so when he ended up in France, I came here and I knew nothing about the rules, anything. I mean, I, I wish I would have had a travel credit card, I wish I had all of these different things.

But I definitely would put a lot more planning and I would definitely hire people next time around. Like I would, I want like experts are experts for a reason. They know what they're doing.

They know the rules, they've taken the time to, like learn this stuff. So I would definitely reach out to more professionals and just make sure I'm setting myself up for the ultimate success long term. Because I think that's another thing too, is there's a big difference if you're just if you're planning to go somewhere just for like a little break, right? You're like, I just want to spend a year or two years abroad, give myself a break.

That's a way different planning experience than like, I want to live someplace, raise my family, retire in a space, right? Like, so many different things go into that. I would definitely, you know, like if I'm moving again, it's because I want to set up roots somewhere in a way that I never thought I was going to do in France. I am shocked we have been here eight years, right? But it's really truly become home and me and my husband are both immigrants here.

So we've both been like kind of ad hocking it, you know, cutting through weeds, trying to figure things out as we go. And that's definitely not the best method if you're somebody that likes peace in your life. So yeah, actually, this is kind of off the cuff.

But can I interject a question? Because I feel like it might be interesting to listeners. It's interesting because we're both in international relationships, but a lot of people that are moving are maybe us couples, right? So us us. And so this is something that like sometimes like enters my brain.

I'm like, oh, that sounds so scary. Because a lot of the differences in mine and my husband's relationship, you know, can be chalked up to cultural things. And you can talk them out and kind of understand like how that informs perspective.

But then I've met some people from the US who are moving as part of a US couple. And there's usually one person that is hard charging to get to Europe usually, or just out of the US. I don't know, I've had you know, some people that have visited us here, right? And they're US couples, and like they would love to move to Europe, but it's just either not in the cards or not really realistic right now.

So yeah, my question is, is there any advice that you or I could think of for folks that are planning to move, but also want to do it in a way that's kind of kind of synchro, right? Because these are questions that you and I are asking ourselves as we're imagining or considering living outside of France right now. That's a good one. I would say don't move if you're not both aligned.

Like don't try to force it would be like my number one piece of advice. Because if one of you is going to be absolutely miserable in the place that you land, like it's just going to taint your whole experience, right? So and then like weird resentment, things can grow and different stuff like that. So I would definitely say try some scouting trips, right? Like if you can afford it, and you have the time, go to places and try to spend, you know, if you can, at least a month in a place and like don't stay in like a resort, get an Airbnb, you know, off the beaten path.

And, you know, see what life really feels like. And that can maybe help get yourself on board with a move, right? Or it could clarify like, no, I absolutely don't want to do this. I think scouting trips are a great, great way to kind of test out if a place could be right for not just you, but your partner, your family.

Take the kids, see how they interact with the culture and with the space. If you have kids, you know, like give the whole family an opportunity to test it out. You have any advice here, Claire? Yeah, I think what I've heard and how my husband and I have talked about it is kind of like giving it a chance to, to suck, but like giving it a good, a good honest chance, right? And so what I mean by that is like, maybe one of you really wants to move somewhere more than the other person.

And the other person's on board to maybe leave your current home or move abroad or something, but they're not totally sold on either the specific location or even the country. I think there is an argument, an argument slash a compromise for IDN Slip, where you agree to try it out, right? I would say it takes at least two years to really understand if you can do it. That being said, I know a lot of people do one year just because it gets really tough around one year.

And so especially if you weren't even super convinced in the beginning, like, you know, that the amount of time that you spend is going to vary from couple to couple, family to family. But I think I would err on the side of give it two years, give it a good honest shot. Make sure you're checking in with each other, communicating all the good relationship rules really bubble back to the surface when you're moving abroad, living abroad, that whole thing.

And then, yeah, just, you know, see how your relationship evolves and grows with it. You know, like, it's definitely not always been an easy road being the person that moved for my husband here in France. But it's worked because we've both grown so much with each other.

And we just genuinely enjoy growing with each other, even when it's tough. And so, you know, that, you know, can apply to whether it's an international couple or, or a US couple. So those are my two cents.

Awesome. That is amazing advice. And I love that note at the end.

If your relationship is strong, it's going to be strong. Anywhere in the world, you can get through tough things. Love it.

But Claire, we are almost out of time. So thank you so much. And I appreciate you joining me on this special episode of Passport to Wealth.

And for our listeners, I promise Ariel will be back next week. Thanks so much for having me on. It's been great.

As always, feel free to ask your questions in the comments and check out more resources on moving abroad at Passport to Wealth.com, including the Passport to Wealth Passport to Wealth directory, which features vetted tax finance and relocation professionals from Canada to Spain to Japan who are ready to help you with your move abroad. And if you're a qualified professional in the expat services space and would like to learn more about being a podcast guest or joining the Passport to Wealth directory, feel free to reach out.