Raising Four Kids in Italy: Schools, Healthcare, and the $25K Tax Mistake

Welcome to Passport to Wealth.

I'm your host, Arielle Tucker, certified financial planner and fellow US expat.

On this show, we bring together cross-border experts and global Americans to help you make

confident decisions about your life, your money, and your next move abroad.

Let's get started.

Welcome back to Passport to Wealth.

My name is Arielle Tucker.

And today's guest is Danielle Shumway.

So many American families dream about moving to Italy, but very few understand what it

actually takes to build a long-term life there.

Danielle did exactly that.

She moved to her husband's hometown in Italy in 2015 with a five-year plan.

I love that you had a five-year plan, by the way.

And now more than a decade later, she's still there raising four kids, building a business,

and navigating life as an American abroad.

Danielle is the creator behind Chow Family Travel, where she helps families plan meaningful

trips and explore the world with kids while sharing the real unfiltered experience of

expat life in Italy.

Though I am following your Instagram, and I would say it looks amazing.

It looks like you guys have a dream, amazing life with four perfect children.

So that's very kind.

It's far from perfect.

It's far from perfect.

So give me a little backstory.

You married an Italian from what I understand.

How did you guys meet and how did you decide to actually go to Italy?

Yeah, so my husband and I met at BYU.

I got married in 2011 and then moved to Seattle.

He was working with Amazon and there was a job opening in Milan.

He's from a town south of there, so just 45 minutes south.

And said, Danielle, there's this opening for this job.

I'm perfect for it.

Can we transfer with Amazon?

And I actually, we had just moved to Queen Anne in Seattle, which was a neighborhood that

I'd been wanting to live in for so long.

And when he called, I actually started crying.

I remember sobbing thinking that my life was over.

But we decided to do it because we wanted to be in your family.

Thought it'd be a great experience for the kids.

So we transferred with Amazon and moved here in 2015.

And we were going to be here on a five-year plan.

There is a law called Cherebellarion-Thrati, which means like the re-entered brain.

So because Italy, like a lot of countries in southern New York, they have a brain drain.

We educated people are leaving the country because honestly, the jobs don't pay that

well.

And so in order to incentivize people to come back, and it used to just be four Italians,

and now it's open up to anyone, people with a certain degree and career, you come back

and for the first five years, we only pay taxes on 50% of our income.

Wow.

Yes.

And then after that, if you have over three children, or at least three children and a

home, you buy a home, then it's pretty much zero.

So now I understand why you have four children.

Yeah.

Luckily, four was my number that I wanted.

And we could have stopped at three.

We could have stopped at three for the tax benefit.

And then that last 10 years.

So we initially came because we were like, well, this will be amazing.

We can have this tax benefit.

My kids can learn Italian.

We can be near family.

And I actually have just really grown to love this country.

And now we're paying all taxes, so close to 50%.

Wow.

They did a good job with that law because my heart is here so much that we just want

to stay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I'm really curious, is your husband also a US citizen?

He was applying.

So he had his green card.

He didn't get a green card through me.

He already had a job in the United States, but he was applying to become a citizen because

he was married to me.

It was a little bit easier.

It still was a process of about two or three years.

But when we decided to move back to Italy, that was the same month he was going to go

sign and officially become a citizen.

The United States, though, is one of the only countries in the world where if you don't

live there, you still have to pay taxes to them.

I'm sure you're familiar with this.

And the whole point of getting the tax break was so that we could save some extra money

and put it into investments or whatever.

And if he were a citizen, he would have to pay taxes to Uncle Sam.

My husband was like, I'm not even American.

There's no way I'm getting a tax benefit and then paying the United States.

So he is not a citizen.

Yeah.

I'm glad you had that discussion and you thought about it because we know so many people who

write, they go to the US, they get educated, they fall in love, they stay for a few years,

and then they decide they want to move their life and their family abroad.

And then they are shocked to discover that the US has citizenship-based taxation and

they are still filing US tax returns.

And so if you go and you are able to get one of these incentives, right, right?

Italy has a number of these tax incentives.

A lot of southern countries in Europe have a lot of these tax incentives where you can

move in and you can pay no or very low taxes for a period of time.

But you will always, if you're a US person, US green card holder or US citizen, you are

always going to pay the highest number.

So if your tax rate is zero for whatever reason, you're still going to be subject to US federal

rates, which go up to 37%.

Exactly.

It still would have been 37% would have been better than the Italian 45%, 47%.

But there was no reason for, you know, he lived in the United States for five years.

There was no reason for him to be paying the US government.

Yeah.

And just as for people who are listening to this, if you become a green card holder and

you try to hold that outside of the US and you can get an extension, but if you hold

it for more than eight years, you're potentially subject to a US exit tax when you leave the

system.

And same with if you realize, okay, I really want to move my family abroad and now we're

going to raise our families when the rest of our life in this other country.

And now you want to give up your US citizenship.

There's also the potential for exit tax.

Right.

It's a formal process that you have to go to.

So if you're thinking about it, if you're navigating this with a non US spouse, seek professional

guidance ahead of making these really big decisions because it's a lot more than just

like, oh, yeah, we want to go and move to Italy and build wealth that way.

So back to 2015.

At that point, did you guys have kids?

Were you moving with children?

Yes, I had an eight-time month old and a four-month old.

So we were going through a little.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when you moved with Amazon, I'm guessing you guys got one of the corporate relocation

packages.

So they did they handle all the immigration and the move and yes, and they even handled

our taxes for like the first couple of years.

So that was, that was really great.

Which I think transparently, that is one of the easiest ways to move abroad is if you

can get a corporate reassignment or a succunment to another office and you're wanting to explore

it, that is like the easiest transition to do because they'll handle so much.

They'll handle the immigration, they'll help you, they'll support you with housing, support

you with navigating two tax systems, the Italian tax system and the US tax system.

So just pro tip for people who are looking to move abroad, I always say, start with your

current company.

Do they have offices abroad?

Is that something that you can consider?

Start having conversations?

It does take time.

I don't know what his, what was his time from applying?

Was it an internal transfer or was it a new job with Amazon?

It was an internal transfer.

No, I mean, it was a different job, but I think he called me when my son was, I was,

I remember when he called me and said I have this job opportunity in Italy, I was unpacking,

we had just moved to Queen Anne.

I think my son was like three weeks old and we moved to when he was four months old.

So like three months.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

It was fast, but it felt really easy because they really took care of everything.

And because I am married to him as soon as I got to Italy, I think you have three days

to go to the questura.

Just say I moved here.

This is my spouse, show your certificate and they give you the Italian equivalent of a

green card called Pérameso di Sogio, I don't know.

So it was a super easy system.

Because you are married to an Italian citizen, did you have the immediate right to work with

that?

Do you know, I mean, I know you had a four month old and a two month old, but you know

I didn't, I didn't work, but I think I did.

I think I did.

Yeah.

Just as a side note to everyone listening, that is something to confirm country to country.

Those rules can vary.

Sometimes if you're, again, you're married to an Italian, generally the process is a

little bit easier, but it is something to consider if one spouse is taking a job, making sure

what the other spouse can do.

Sometimes they can work and sometimes they can.

Some additional restrictions.

Did you also have to have any type of Italian language certificate or any proof of language

when you were moving into Italy?

No.

So I think to get the Pérameso di Sogio, you just have to come, especially, I mean, I

can only speak because I'm married to my husband.

So that's my experience.

But just come and they just give you the piece of paper and you're good to go.

When I became a citizen, I didn't have to take any tests, but I do have friends who are

married to Italians who now are applying for their citizenship.

So to have an Italian passport currently and they do have to take an Italian language

exam.

So that is something new, I think, within the past couple of years.

Yeah.

And we're seeing that across rollout in most European countries right now.

You either have to come in and show basic language level of the country that you are

moving to.

I had to do that in Switzerland.

I had to show that I had to go.

Oh, wow.

German language certificate for my visa.

But when we first moved abroad in 2011, that was not a requirement.

So these requirements are changing.

It's just important to be aware that what we're talking about today, it might have likely

changed since 2015.

Now you've gone on to have two more children in Italy.

So you can kind of compare what raising children is a little bit in the US versus Italy.

Can you just kind of walk us through some of the big differences, everything from what

was your experience with the medical and the healthcare system of having children.

And I'm also really curious if your children are in local school or international school

or how you're navigating that as a family.

Yeah.

So I gave birth to them.

My boys in Seattle and I have the girls here.

I would say the biggest difference is here they take your blood work every single month

when you're pregnant.

So there is a lot of prenatal care.

I had so many appointments.

I think it's about one month before your due date, you go to the hospital and they give

you this piece of paper and ask you if you want an epidural when you're giving birth or

not because you have to decide four weeks in advance because they say that when you are

actually giving birth, they don't trust the state of your mind to make this go.

Wow.

I can't imagine that.

I feel like there's like the version of me that's like, of course, I want an all natural

birth and then there's a reality which is like, no, give me all the drugs.

No, you're not in the right state of mind.

So I did push them.

I mean, I like giving birth, not that I like it, but I prefer giving birth naturally.

That's the only way I've done it.

So that wasn't a problem for me, but I did push them.

I said, but what if someone changes their mind and they eventually said, well, like if they

push hard enough, but I think that's like yelling and screaming in Italy, then maybe

they will give you an epidural.

Anyway, that was a funny experience.

They are also very, because it is free.

There is zero pushing to get an epidural or to have any medication or to do anything

that is unnatural.

So like in Seattle, when I went to go give birth, I had the nurse actually say, oh, I

don't think you're going to make it without an epidural and asking me every 30 minutes,

can I give you an epidural?

Can I give you an epidural?

In Italy, instead, there was like a doula almost who sat with me through the whole thing and

you know, gotten the tub with me and they had these balls and like little contraptions.

It was just more set up for the natural birthing experience because that's more cost effective

for them.

So I actually enjoyed the actual labor and delivery in Italy more.

I will say after the child is born, it is just a very cold, strict environment.

It doesn't feel like in the United States where, you know, it's private and so you can

order whatever you want on the menu.

People are coming in.

I'm thinking, gently, you generally, I paid for a private room for myself.

It's not that expensive.

I think it was $100 a night or $80 a night, but they only have three private rooms in

the hospital and the rest of them you have to share with two other women.

So I can't imagine recovering with babies, other people's babies crying all night.

Anyway, I did have a pretty terrible experience for the three days afterward.

Oh, yeah, that sounds rough.

How is the food with Italian hospital food good?

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that the food I ate in Seattle was a lot better.

They do try to be super healthy.

So there's like not a lot of salt and you do have your, you'll have your pasta dish and

then your meat dish and your fruit as your dessert and stuff.

So it is very well balanced.

It's probably more well balanced than whatever I ate in the United States, but it's also

you don't get to choose.

They just bring you the menu of the day.

You might have two options and you can choose one of them.

No, thank you for sharing that experience.

We talk about this a lot with different countries in the US.

If you have good insurance, you have like the most magical healthcare system in the world,

right?

Yeah.

It's really amazing.

And when you move abroad and if you really are like local, living like a local, your healthcare

experience will look very different.

And what you're describing in Italy was similar to kind of like what my experience was in

Switzerland.

And again, it's kind of something that you should consider.

Okay, what, what am I actually looking?

What's my expectations for my experience really talk that through?

Do I need to book the private room?

Do I need to do that in advance?

Do I need additional private insurance top up for a certain level of care that I'm looking

for?

It's just important to proactively have those conversations because oftentimes if you've

moved to a new country and you're, and you're already pregnant or you're trying to get the

insurance after you're pregnant, you can't get it.

So it's just important to think about that proactively.

And I would say mostly there's this cultural difference where sometimes they wouldn't knock

or they would knock and then just like open up the door and they would come in and they

would like check my temperature by shoving something in my ear.

Just a little bit, there's not that kind of gentle space that we have in the United States.

So I don't think that they would even think that they're being rude or that it's a rough

experience, but just compared to our culture, it's very different.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, I understand.

You have the kids in Italy, you've got the two older ones.

When does, I mean, did you do anything with daycare or when does kindergarten start?

Like what did that process look as your kids started to enter the school system?

Yeah.

So Italy has, I actually, I was in love with their preschool system.

So they have something which is they'll have one year for kids that are like from newborn

until one.

Okay.

So just a little class for those kids only if you really disagree.

This is a government started from zero to one or when does it, is this private?

No.

So you're right.

This is private.

Most people, most people are doing it though.

You're right.

So this is private.

So squalamatirna is when it's becoming government run.

So government run starts around three years old.

I will say in Italy, there, at least in our town, a lot of people have to go private because

the government free spots are full, almost full.

So there's that to navigate.

I mean, in theory, it's free.

There is a grando a to area.

I don't know how to say that, but you get a number of points depending on if the mom

works, if the dad works, how far away you're working.

Are you commuting to Milan or not?

Where do the grandparents parents live?

Where do you live?

So every family gets a number of points and then they start with the people that have

the most points and they go down the list.

So that's starting at three years old.

And I will say it's not even like daycare.

It's more of a kindergarten experience, meaning very structured and they have art activities

in the morning and playtime and reading aloud.

And then they have lunch and naps.

So that starts at three to five.

Okay.

So is that it's not like a daycare then?

So it's not all day.

Is it just mornings, just afternoons?

No, it's all day.

It's like mandatory.

If you're going to sign your child up, then the child has to go until right before lunch,

but it does go until 4.30.

The afternoon is flexible for the parents.

You can come pick the child up.

Oh, that is nice.

And if you're paying for private because you don't have enough points, what does that cost

look like in Italy?

I need to remember.

I want to say it's about $300 a month.

350 might be might be the euros or dollars.

I'm sorry, euros.

Okay.

Yeah.

So I mean, still when we're comparing us daycare expenses, which I think are on average like

2500 a month at this point, you're starting at three.

You're starting much earlier than we start right in the US and you've got those two years,

which what is it?

Do you have like a feeling for their approach?

Is it kind of like a Montessori type approach, a play-based approach?

Like are they outside more?

I mean, what does it feel like compared to like a normal kindergarten?

Yeah.

So every school is a little bit different, but I would say the Italian culture is very

Montessori, of course Montessori was Italian.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Uh-huh.

So it is a lot of playing outside.

There are some that are inside the city, so they don't have like, let's say like a backyard

area or a play place outside, but most of them, those that I chose did.

And so the kids will take, you know, there's some basic music classes and it's a lot of

play.

They don't learn to read and they don't learn to write.

That's like, that's not the focus at all.

The focus is discovering and playing with art and dressing up and reading books and being

outside and going for nature walks.

Oh, that sounds wonderful.

Okay.

So then at five, what happens at that point?

So the year that a child turns six, that's September is when they go to first grade.

There is no kindergarten.

I'm sure you know you're speaking, speaking German.

Kindergarten was actually like something that an American lady brought over from Europe.

That's why it's Kinder children, children garden, but it just starts at first grade,

first grade is when you learn how to read and write and you're in the elementary school,

elementary school is five years.

Is it a pretty drastic change from going from this like very relaxed play based kind of

learning to all of a sudden now we're sitting in the classroom all day and learning how

to read?

Is it like a huge transition for the kids or does it feel very natural and gradual?

I think it's a pretty big transition.

I think it's a pretty, I'm sure that the teachers inside the classroom, you know, they will

say the first three months like, yeah, we're transitioning.

We're helping the kids.

They work with the kids, but a lot of kids do what I call full time school.

So there are two school options here.

I call them part time and full time school in Italy.

It's called full time.

And then in our city, there's a word called modulo, which means like the part time.

So you just go until about lunch traditionally, Italian children until about the eighties would

just go into lunch.

So school was Monday through Saturday from eight to noon.

And then they would go home and have lunch at home.

And women began working, you know, in the eighties, there's many of the women are suddenly

working and they suddenly need a daycare system.

The government decided to make an option for school to be from generally it's eight thirty

to four thirty Monday through Friday.

So right now currently the modulo, the part time school that my kids are going to is truly

being phased out.

It's almost no longer an option.

I think in our town, there are two or three schools that have one class.

Oh, wow.

Do your kids go to school in Saturday then?

Are they doing the six half days?

So my kids went to school on Saturdays until COVID hit when COVID hit.

I don't think there is a school left in our town that still goes to school on Saturdays.

But now the kids go to school from like eight until one Monday through Friday or or my girls

have a school where they do like eight thirty to twelve thirty.

And then they have two long days.

They have two days Tuesday and Thursday where they go until four thirty.

And so do they just come home and play?

Like what do the afternoons look like?

Yeah, mm-hmm.

Sports start around because most kids are in the school that goes until four thirty.

Sports do not start until five o'clock.

Which is a little bit tough for me because some of my kids finish training at eight.

It's a very Italian schedule.

So you're coming home at eight forty five.

They have to shower at sports.

That's a very Italian thing.

So we're eating dinner round eight forty five and that's a bit difficult for me.

But yeah, in the afternoons they just play.

They get their homework done.

Have fun.

So those are late nights for the kids.

They're getting in bed after nine I'm guessing.

And then they're up and at school at eight thirty the next morning.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That would be hard for me too.

That's hard.

Yes, I used to.

I mean my sister-in-law and friends would laugh at me before my kids were in sports.

I was like, hey, seven o'clock.

Everyone is in bed.

They're like, we don't eat till nine around here.

I know.

I'm so happy.

But anyway.

Okay.

I wanted we talked a little bit before we jumped on the podcast.

We talked a little bit as about how you and your husband were navigating taxes in Italy

and then also in the US.

And you had a good story about realizing that your preparer might not be doing things as

well as you thought or understood.

So why don't you just give you a chance to kind of talk through like what did you guys

learn as you've tried to navigate these two tax systems that are very different?

Yes.

So just last year we were really scared because we found out that although we had been told

by someone that we didn't need to be filing taxes in the United States because my husband

is not an American citizen, I don't have an income.

I'm a state home mom.

We do have a couple apartments in the United States.

But our renters were pretty much paying the mortgage.

So we really didn't have any income from those.

But we still by law, as you well know, needed to be filing taxes.

So we just found that out last year and luckily someone tipped us off to it, trying to create

an LLC and our lawyer said, Hey, I need your tax records and this is going to be bad if

the IRS finds out that you haven't been filing taxes.

So luckily we cut that first, but we did have to pay $25,000 to our lawyers just to

get all of that stuff sorted out was a big mess and to get our taxes paid.

So we now have a CPA in the United States who's just focusing on the things in the United

States and one in Italy.

We try to find someone that could do both of it, but literally no one has the expertise.

We haven't found someone so far that has expertise to manage it all.

Yeah.

It is really complex.

But I always recommend if you can, international is a specialty within personal taxation.

Most accountants are taking these exams and it's mostly on just us cases.

International is such a small subsection that I come across people all the time.

They're still using grandpa's friends, CPA in Oklahoma, who's trying to help them out

and staying in compliant.

And so I think it's really important as you're going through this process of looking to move

abroad, you really think about who your team is.

And that is likely multiple people.

So just something to be aware.

Thank you for sharing your story.

I also want to just kind of like as we we finish up here today, I know that you guys

have traveled over 50 countries with kids, which is so aspirational.

That is so many countries.

I literally I don't think I don't I we're not anywhere near near 50.

Is your decision making process with kids?

And how do you support the clients that you guide with their planning?

How does that look like?

Yeah.

So I I learned to the hard way.

My husband and I went on a trip that I'd planned and we had three small little kids at the

time.

I I thought that I had a giant cavity because I literally had this pain after just one week

like shooting up into my into my brain into my school.

And when I finally got back to the dentist, I was we were in the Czech Republic.

I was like, I think I have to go get a doctor and get a tooth pulled or something.

When we finally came back to Italy, the pain disappeared after a couple days and I went

to my dentist and he said, Oh, I think that was stress.

Oh my God.

That was a terribly planned trip because I knew it was stressful when I was in it.

But even my body was responding because I tried to put so many things, you know, pack

our days full and go from city to city to city with like a three year old, a two year

old and a one year old.

I quickly learned I would say any parents that are wanting to bring their kids to Europe.

I have a 70 30 rule, which is 70% of your time.

I'm talking kids, you know, 12 12 12 and under generally needs to be outside in nature at

a lake on a hike.

And truly, there are so many amazing things to see in Europe that are outside.

And then you can pop into the cities every once in a while.

And another tip would be just variety like take a cooking class or go on a bike ride.

And just like go see four churches in a morning or hit a whole bunch of museums.

So just really slow down, include variety and try to spend as much time outside as possible.

I love those tips and I was I was looking through your Instagram ahead of this, which

is amazing.

There's so many great tips and tricks on traveling with young kids.

And I have kids under the age of 12 and something that we started to do that you mentioned and

I would like totally resonated with me was we started hiring a private guide for certain

destinations that we would go to.

And so the guide is aware that we have children is speaking at our children's level.

And it's not just us like talking at them.

This is why this is important.

You don't appreciate this.

It totally changed how we travel.

We don't do that for every museum.

We don't do that for every city.

We will do that.

And it has paid off so much.

The kids are so much more engaged with the travel.

And we also have and I know you talk about this as well kind of allowed them to be really

engaged in deciding what we do next.

So like our daughter is really into Greek mythology.

So we went to Greece, right?

And we went and at the Louvre in Paris, you can hire like they have a kids tour and you

can kind of customize that a bit.

And again, these are like really has changed how we travel and it makes the whole process

a lot more enjoyable because naturally I'm a go go go person and I am like checking

off all of the things that I have on my list.

And I have to remind myself if we don't all want to be miserable on this trip to like

really slow down.

Exactly.

And I have the same similar personality of wanting to see everything get everything done.

What has really helped me is, you know, about five years ago, I started having a at the

bottom of my itinerary and if we have timeless, which then I didn't feel like I had to put

it in my itinerary, but it was like, if we have time, I'd love to go see this museum

or I'd love to go to this cafe or something.

And it just kind of releases the pressure to realize everything is just enough what we're

going to do what we can.

But the best, the whole point is to be as a family and discover new things and not to

go crazy.

Danielle, thank you so much for joining us today.

It's been such a pleasure to learn from your experience as you build your life in it.

It's been fun to share with you.

Thanks.

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