When Referrals Mess With Your Pricing (And What to Do Instead) — with Celina Guerrero

In this episode of The Pricing Lady Podcast, I sit down with Celina Guerrero, founder of Connect and Co. She shares with us her Pricing journey and how referrals influenced her Pricing over the years. Sit back, relax, and enjoy the episode.

Welcome to The Pricing Lady Podcast, where smart business owners price with purpose and profit with clarity. I'm Janene your hostess and I'm very excited to have here with me today Celina Guerrero, founder of Connect and Co. Welcome, Celina.

Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here with you.

I'm happy to. So let's start by you sharing where you're joining us from today.

I live in Los Angeles, California.

Excellent. So it's a bit early for you there.

Yes.

And what's one personal or professional superpower that you'd like to share with us?

You know, I thought about this, I think cheerleading. I, enough, I was a cheerleader in high school, I'm actually kind of embarrassed to say, but I feel like when I talk to people, I just want them to do well, and I just. Think I have a sense, I have a good way of saying like, you got this, like sometimes that's what people need and I think I do that well.

Excellent. That's a good superpower. Sometimes we all need a little cheerleader behind us. Rooting.

Sometimes I

along.

much for people, but I think I'm good at it. It, it comes naturally to me and I think people appreciate it, if not always, most of the

Yeah.

not always.

Okay. What's one thing most people don't know about you that you'd like to share with us?

I was an opera singer for a long time

Wow.

I be, I came into marketing and sales. I'm happy to share more about that, but yeah, I have a degree in vocal arts and music and went to New York and did that for a while and did not do well, and then went into the business world in the marketing sales side.

Oh, I love that. Oh, how interesting. I did not know that. So thanks for sharing with that. That with us very, very much. why don't we start by you giving us a little bit of context, maybe two or three sentences about the kind of work you do and what usually people come to you for.

I am a sales strategist and a LinkedIn expert. I think of myself primarily as helping specifically service-based businesses and consultants attract clients and then convert them all the way to close. A lot of times people come to me when they have built their business to a certain point with referrals. They get clients and then at some point they are really just doing networking. And so at some point they wanna do more marketing and sales. They're ready to what they're doing more clearly and activate and go to market. So that's really what I do with my clients.

Okay. Excellent. And what's the value they ultimately get by working with you?

I think on the mindset side, they have a lot more confidence. I think when you go into business as a consultant, a any consultant will tell you like they're good at what they do, and I think if you're going to be an independent consultant or run a business, you also have to become an expert at sales. You have to know how to sell. You have to know how to market and sell. You know how you have to do business development. And so I think it really solves a big problem that they have, which is this, just this kind of thorn in their side that they're really good what they do, but they can't seem to get

Mm.

quality level of quality of clients or the number of clients that they want. So I just think it really, it. their business, I think is the value there. It raises their confidence and it just gives them more ability to have sustainability in their business and not really, frankly, burnout and, you know, and leave the business because it's too hard to get clients, or the only clients they can get are bad or like not a good fit and take too much time and lower prices and all of that. So the value really is just almost like a. A huge arm of their business is, is, is gets into place in their business. And I think that's, the value there is just continuing to get better clients over the longer term.

I love the word fortification. That's a great, that was a great word to, to slide in there. Makes a lot of sense. So why did I take you back when you first started your business and you had to set that first price for what you were offering, what was that like for you?

I was thinking about this very, very, very, very first time I was using Ellan or one of those like

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

this is. years ago, and I probably the price that they were offering. That's probably the very first one, you know, and I think that speaks to this idea that, you know, you just, sometimes you're just trying to. I see this with my own clients, you're just trying to get the business, you know, Pricing is secondary.

Yeah.

I definitely feel like for a long time setting those prices was so nebulous. I mean, I think also, I talk about this a a lot, which is like when you have a product, it has a shape and a size, and it has a cost to production, right? And shipping and logistics. But with services, it's so much more fluid. So it's just been a, I think. I think that it's just always been challenge to put a value on something. And I think definitely the services piece is, is is hard and I think you don't always know what the, especially when you're first starting out, you don't necessarily know what everyone else is charging, so

Yeah,

kind of make it up, I think. I think that, you know, that's definitely been my experience as well at

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, these days there's usually a lot of information you can find about what other people are charging, but it's not necessarily good information,

Yeah.

so you have to be careful as well.

yes.

Yeah, so the reference point you were using at that time was basically what clients were offering you offering to pay you, not necessarily what you were wanting to charge.

Yeah, I think that what I think there was usually like on those, I mean this is a really long time ago, but there was this like a site and it would said, you know, doing like a Facebook ad. This was back in the day when I, you know, we were doing Facebook. I. Like with very small businesses, and let's say they offered like $200, you would be like, okay, I'll take $200.

Mm-hmm.

you just didn't have to think about it.

Okay.

obviously in a site like that when you don't have you know, clients coming in, you're taking what is being offered for sure.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so was there a point in time where you made a natural transition or are you still doing that?

No, I mean, I, I think when you, when, when I reflect on that question, it

Yeah.

interesting for me to think like, oh yeah, that's, that was the first time I

Mm-hmm.

a price on it. Well, I will tell you something. When, you know, I had just left my full-time job and I got this, and I was doing more digital marketing at the time. I just remembered there was something really powerful about being paid

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I was not an employee anymore. Right? Like there's something so. Empowering about somebody giving you money for my, for what's in my brain. I think that was, I remember that being really specific. And so I, again, I just think it was like, it didn't kind of matter how much it was. And then I think later on it was definitely at the time people were using like email software and they were getting Wix and they were, I was doing a lot more digital marketing at the time. And it, you know, and I think you're right, I don't think it, I think it's way more transparent what people. Generally offer, but it was new for a lot of people and so the risk level on their end was kind of, I don't really know what the results are gonna be. So I think I honestly, I'm sure I just made it, I mean, I just made it up for sure. I'm like, this seems like a good price.

Yeah.

I have no recollection of

Mm-hmm.

and writing an hourly or writing a project fee or anything like that. It was just, I, I have no idea how it came up with the number, to be honest.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. And at that point, how did it feel to you saying those numbers or telling people that that's what you charge? Was that comfortable for you?

So that's an interesting question. I think as somebody who is a salesperson, right? I was a salesperson for many years and now I'm a sales, you know, consultant and trainer. And so I'm on a call with somebody, don't have any issue saying the price. Like I'll say. It's a thousand dollars. Right. But I think what I still have to do even then, even then, is make sure that I come in with the clarity beforehand. Right? Like, to really reflect on that. Because

Mm-hmm.

to the call, like I feel comfortable saying like, it's a thousand dollars, or you know, it's between 1,002 thousand or thou like, or, or you know, this is the range or something like talking about money in that way. Like what is your budget? Like all those things are not difficult for me,

Right.

It doesn't mean that the Pricing is easy. I definitely, you know, still to this day have a tendency to underestimate the work required and, and, and, and price lower. And I think, I think that I've matured, I worked with you as my Pricing coach, I definitely learned a lot about like, oh, maybe you should actually be thinking about the cost of client acquisition. Again, I think this. Speaks to services, right? We just like, we get to kind of make it up in a sense, right? And really being more defined in like a product sense, like thinking of us, our work as a services, as a product, you know, and saying like, this is what's entailed. And I, I definitely have matured in that way, but I will just say I do. To sit down with myself and think, what, what does this look like ahead of time? I don't, because I, I think it is easy when you're in conversation with somebody to tell them the price to get insecure and lower the price. You know, I, that's sort of a normal human

Yeah. Yeah.

for earlier consultants.

No, I think it's great that you say that, you know, because I was wondering as a sales person, 'cause a lot of people struggle with saying the number and that leads to a lot of what I call no, no behavior. Either offering low prices or discounts when you don't need to, or. Asking the price instead of saying the price. Things like this. And I would guess as a sales professional, there's a little bit less emotional attachment to it. There may still be some there, but I would guess that there's less. One of the things that you mentioned earlier was your business and referrals. So why don't you tell us a bit about how referrals play have played into your business over the years and what that, what has meant for you in terms of pricing?

So I have a love hate relationship with referrals. But ref refer everybody always. I often hear consultants will say like, oh, you know, I get all my clients from referrals. And I, in the back of my mind I'm thinking, well, that's not really a good thing. Right? then, and as it's, you know, specific to price, I think what can end up happening is if a, so let's just talk about referrals. Let me back up one

Yeah. Yeah. Do tell us where you, why you don't like them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So high. Like the good part about referrals is they're high trust. They close way faster. Right? Because people already know you and they, somebody has said, oh yeah, Celina's really great to work with. And a lot of times they will pay you the, the, the, you know, what you're worth because they, they already know that you're, they've already, you've been pre you know, they've already, like, you've already been, what do you like

Vetted,

their end,

you're qualified. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

worth it. Right? So in that sense, it's great. Like I will take a referral all day. But the downside of that is that if we are. Only relying on referrals. If we have a, what I would say, an over reliance on referrals and we never start moving into more of like that demand work, like trying to go out and get clients. can end up happening is that those referrals that come in, we end up. Number one, we move, we wanna move really fast. And so we don't fully qualify them. We end up sometimes because if somebody referred me, I'll say, oh, okay, well I'll do it for this price. Right? Like, you tend to lower it because you're kind of doing a favor, but also because you didn't really have any other clients coming in. 'cause you never really built up a, like a sales funnel. Right? A

Right.

I think also the biggest thing with referrals and as, especially as it relates to Pricing, is fit. If somebody, I could tell you an example. So somebody referred, I'll give you two examples. Somebody referred somebody to me and they wanted help with their LinkedIn company page, and they wanted to have they specifically, they wanted to create the company page because they wanted to, for their clients to be able to add this certification that they receive from the company. And you can only do that if you have a LinkedIn company page. I took this referral and I thought it was gonna be simple, and all of a sudden I find myself like having to figure out all these things with the company page, all these technical things, which I didn't actually think the client needed, frankly, but they, at that point I was already in.

Right.

And here's the tricky part with referrals is that. I am, I don't wanna say beholden, but I have a relationship with the person that refers. I feel obligated in a sense to do a good job. I mean, I always feel like I'm gonna do a good job, but I feel like I have to fulfill the I wanna make sure, like what you can end up doing is, in that case with the company page, I was like, okay, this, this is taking way longer. So whatever my price was, I'm now working instead of like at $200 an hour, it's, I'm now working at $20 an hour

Right,

so much more to figure

right.

I'm beholden, in a sense I wanna maintain my relationship with the person that referred. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna do keep going and I have to do all this extra work. It can be a little, referrals can be dysfunctional and it can be really impact your Pricing because you're just like, happy to take the work. You know that that person's gonna sign right away and you're like, okay, fine, I'll, I'll lower the fee, or I'll end up having to do all this extra work because it wasn't the right fit. This happens a lot. Similarly it was another referral. I can think of where they were so early stage and I was like, okay. Because it moved so quickly, it's like, oh, I wanna hire you. Okay, let's do it. Because, you know, you're like, great, let's sign, let's, let's sign the contract. Like, send me, I'm gonna send you the invoice. Now you're accelerating that process. I think for me personally, in that particular case, again, the, the fee was okay. It wasn't like super low or anything, but then the amount of work that I had to do in order to create the value that I had promised was so much more. So you have to be really careful of qualifying those, those referrals and making sure that. As you've taught me, there has to be alignment between the price and the value and the actual work. And I think that that alignment can kind of tend to be ignored when you get referrals. 'cause they're just seem easy.

Right, right. I would guess that in some cases you might even short circuit your normal vetting process a little bit because you trust the person who referred them and they trust you a little bit more. So maybe you don't handle that as robustly, and then either there's a consequence in terms of you accept terms that aren't as it. Aligned with your normal standards as you should, or you find yourself like you did in these two cases in a situation where you maybe you didn't understand the scope of the project as much upfront and therefore it's not aligned with the price that you gave them. Is that

Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. I can see that. I, you know, it's funny 'cause I was trying to think if I've had clients who've. Who've come and confessed that problem, but I haven't yet.

Oh

mean it wasn't there. Wink, wink, Celina, because we didn't have that conversation, did we? That's really interesting. And I never thought about that with referrals, but I can. I can see. I can see how that can happen.

Yeah, I definitely feel like it. It really just speaks to, I mean, especially in relation to the work that I specifically do,

Right.

the lens to which I see this is that. I believe consultants need to make sure that they're visible and actively bringing clients, and, excuse me, I should say, leads into their business.

Mm-hmm.

I think my Pricing challenges have been specifically in relationship to, especially when you don't have enough clients, right? And you're like, okay, I'm just gonna take what comes and it feels good. And you can pay your, pay your bills. Right. You know, I think there's, you're motivated there,

Right.

you have to lower the price.

Mm-hmm.

if you have to do more work and you're com you really can get out of alignment. And it's,

Mm-hmm.

think, you know, consultants and, you know, service provider founders we need to pay attention

Yeah.

And I think that if that, I think sometimes again, that personal relationship and the vetting get, you know, because of the personal relationship, the vetting kind of gets lost.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know if people are always attuned to that and it's sometimes I just know better and I still don't listen my own advice. But I will

We've all done.

I'll say, I think again, I, I think we worked together like a year ago or so. If I'm, if I'm, if I'm remembering correctly. And you know, I think really looking at that alignment a against, you know, in other words, being more attuned to that alignment.

Mm-hmm.

specifically I think what's happens is if you end up taking these. Or fit clients, or especially with where the Pricing is, just like, again, you're either the, you're priced too low, right? Or, you know, you've just scope creep causes Pricing issues,

Right.

from profitability standpoint, right? that it causes this whole negative cycle where I'm working so hard, delivering to my clients

Mm-hmm.

have time to market, and then I'm more reliant on.

Yeah.

fit referrals, not, I'm not talking about the good fit referrals or the, so it becomes this really vicious cycle

Yeah.

you know, you can, it can definitely impact your Pricing as well. 'cause you just need to take what you, what what you

Right.

Yeah. So it, I think that definitely referrals, the, the dynamic with a consultants and their reliance or,

Mm-hmm.

over-reliance and referrals can absolutely be, you know. Detrimental to your Pricing

Mm-hmm.

basically erode anything that you've set up for yourself.

right.

and that's a not a good place to be.

Right. I think it's important here to say, you know, it's not that referrals are bad. I think your main point was that Overreliance on them has some downside that we need to be certainly aware of. I think that it's also very important to mention here for, especially from a pricing context that. Maybe you can't in a discovery call or two figure out all of the things that the client needs, but that's why it's so important to be very clear in your contracts, what the scope is as you've defined it, and to also mention, okay, these things are excluded. If we need to do them, then you'll be, you know, we'll discuss it and, and I'll charge you for that, you know, so it's also about. You know, if you're accepting these things and you're not really protecting yourself and the client with those boundaries, then again, it really has an impact on your business. Not just your pricing, but your wellbeing and your ability to, to run the business as well.

Absolutely. I think that in my experience, my personal experience,

Mm-hmm.

two stories, is you just get a little loose, right? You get loose and then you end up sometimes in, in one of these cases at least, it was such a small. Thing I thought, oh, no problem. And that's where I, where exactly in the scope of the contract. But even then, Janene, if I'm being honest, I absolutely did have very specific deliverables of a very specific timeline. But what happened was the, it was her, her assistant, or her you know, her associate there who I was speaking with. And then I did speak with her before the contract was signed, the owner, but then. She just was on this phone and she just had questions and questions and questions and I, I felt trapped. You know? And I think, again, if

Yeah.

if I had I think there's just something this speaks, I think, to the boundaries that we have to have. Like even if you refer me, 'cause this is the thing people love referring, And I wanna, in a sense, I, wanna make that refer, feel good

Yeah.

Referring me, right? I wanna make them feel good

Mm-hmm.

but that can just be very dysfunctional, right? Because that's the wrong reason to take a client. So,

Yeah. Sometimes the best thing you can do for a client prospect is say, you know what? I'm actually not the best person to work with you.

Absolutely.

but I know so and so. Right. I can see where, you know, wanting to please the original client who made the referral you know, seems like you have to say yes, but not every situation, every client is a good fit. And sometimes the best thing you can do is recommend someone else. In, in that case. So I think that's also important to keep in mind. I think a lot of people when they start their business, get into these scenarios where they feel like they have to take anything and everything. And I don't know about you, but what I've found over the years is when I kind of circumvent my own rules of engagement is usually when I end up in the biggest trouble.

Yes. That's, that's it. The rules of engagement. I love that so much because it's like, this is the thing when your Pricing is already wishy-washy and you're insecure about it, and it's so fluid when something comes in, it just seems like a no-brainer. You really have to be, whether it's a referral or somebody who comes in through, you know, a social media ca social media or, you know, listens to you and as a speaker or whatever that is, right. That, that firmness of Pricing, is critical to success because, you know, I think this really again, speaks to just profitability and really being clear about can I afford to take this? Right. What is the opportunity cost, right?

Right.

spending all this time figuring out how to, you know, she should go to add something or other on a company page, right? That's taking away my time to be trying to get clients that are a better fit, for

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. if you know somebody were thinking about their own business and they realize, I'm over reliant on the referrals in my business and that might be impacting my pricing. What can they do differently in order to start shifting that?

Well, I think first of all, get clear about your Pricing. Right? I think that's the interesting thing. It's the two sides of the same coin,

Hmm.

Like you do need to say, where am I actually profitable? Where does this actually make sense? Right? And when you're, the second thing, of course, would be to, do things to get clients. So for example, right, I like my process is like there's four part process, which is like awareness and then they need to learn and they need to engage and then you convert, right? This is very typical, like, you know, arc of getting clients and I definitely feel like. When you decide to do that, when you decide, I'm not gonna just wait for people to come to me and I'm gonna, as we say, go to market, which is like a really big word, but Right. We're gonna be visible and, and, and try to bring in clients. You have to have product market fit essentially, right? You have to know, who am I targeting? Do they have the budget for that? And is it all working

Right. Okay.

Because I absolutely feel like if I'm putting something out there for like $10,000 and. I'm undercharging, I have a choice. I can either, do less, I can either market to the same client and then do less, right? So that I, the Pricing makes sense, or I have to raise the price, but then I have to go after a different market. I don't mean to sound that it's over complicated, but it really does all have to work. And I think that in order for you, in order for me to say. go to market. You do need to kind of have your Pricing sense. 'cause you have to know, you know, who can afford that in a sense. So they work hand in hand. I wish I could separate them, them from each other. What do you think about that?

Yeah. If I can rephrase that a bit. It's about being proactive and prepared.

Absolutely. I.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay, cool. Love it. Alright, a couple more questions for you. If someone's listening here today, what is it that you want them to remember from our conversation?

Hmm.

Do you remember our conversation?

be aware of referral. No. Have your boundaries with referrals? No. Get your Pricing. Get your Pricing set so that when you referrals come in, you're not just like, woo wooed by the opportunity. That absolutely would be the message I would say.

Yeah. Great. I like that. Again, it's about making sure that you're prepared for those situations, that you're applying the same standards across the board, rather than doing things ad hoc in certain situations like referrals.

I

Yeah.

exactly.

Yeah. What is next for Connect and Co? Where are things headed for you Celina?

Oh, that's a nice question. Well, I've spent a lot of time really helping people with LinkedIn and getting clients from LinkedIn, and that's still my expertise and still something I do love doing.

Mm-hmm.

I definitely am feeling more of focused now on sales systems. I look at it as sort of you have information and then you kind of implement, but then you want that integration piece. And I'm thinking more about my clients in terms of where they are in that process. Right. And I'm sure it's the same for you with Pricing. Right. You know, it's, it's one thing to know something. It's one thing to start implementing and it's another thing to actually integrate. And it's sort of like. Making it part like integral to the business that as what was a fortification of their business. I'm leaning in on that and really kind of helping people see this as something that is a non-negotiable and helping them more on the implementation. Interestingly, I think as somebody who is a trainer, there's so much information out there with AI now

Mm-hmm.

kind of think, okay, well if somebody can find that on chat, GBT how does my course, for example, like where

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I, I think maybe from that perspective of what as well, thinking a lot more about actual implementation and the importance of that because information is everywhere, but how do we actually implement and integrate.

Right?

bit more of the direction that I'm going in these days, and

Mm-hmm.

I think that's a good place to you know, I'm sure other companies are thinking the same thing about that AI information, but that's a little bit more of the direction. And honestly, I just love, I love operations, I love systems, and I think that that's really critical for the long term sustainability of businesses. And so that's a little more of the direction I'm going in.

Yeah. Cool. Excellent. Celina, if people would like to know more about how to work with you, where can they find you?

Please find me on LinkedIn. You can send me a DM there. You

Mm-hmm.

send me an invitation to connect. Tell me you listened to this podcast with Janene. LinkedIn is the best place to find me.

Excellent. So we'll put her link and other to LinkedIn, her LinkedIn link, and other links in the show notes for you. Thank you so much for joining me today. It's been a real pleasure talking with you and learning more about your pricing journey.

Janene, it is so lovely to be here and I carry you with me all of the time. Every time I'm putting Pricing together, whether that's on a proposal on my website, and I'm always like. What would Janene do? Ww JD right. Or I should say, what would The Pricing Lady do? So, you know, it, it, it is, it's interesting. I definitely feel like the Pricing piece is so much more forefront in my mind and I think why? How, how is it that I haven't actually tackled this Pricing thing all of these years? Right. It's sort of shocking in a sense. So I'm, I'm just happy to have worked with you, but I'm just happy to be here and have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for the invitation.

My pleasure, Celina, and thanks of those who are listening to this episode. It's been a pleasure to have you here. If you want to support the show, the number one thing you can do is share this episode on social media and tag me and Celina. That helps get the word out. Have a great day, and as always, enjoy Pricing.