Understanding Your Why Before an International Move

Arielle Tucker (00:00.238)

Moving your family to Portugal is not just about visas, tax planning, or spreadsheets. The real question is harder. What are you actually willing to change to build the life you want? Today I'm joined by Mark Moberg, a cross-border financial planner who moved his own family from the United States to Portugal. Mark works with Americans who are serious about making the move, and he has seen what separates the families who build a real life abroad.

From the ones who arrive unprepared and overwhelmed. He's also recently written a book called The Life Arbitrage, Permission to Have Dessert. And we're gonna get into all of that today. So this question isn't just about spreadsheets. We're gonna be talking about what it actually takes to make that move, just like Mark and his family did. Mark, thank you so much for joining me today.

Mark Moberg (00:49.337)

Great to be here.

Arielle Tucker (00:50.87)

I th I love your story because you were a CFP, you're a certified financial planner, you were living in the US, and then you actually decided to make that move abroad. Could you just kind of to introduce your our audience to you a little bit more, could you frame what that moved looked like and and what kind of the decision making that that led your family to make that move?

Mark Moberg (01:14.319)

yes, and it's a little bit different for our family than a lot who I see in Portugal in that we came over for my wife's work. d her international company wanted her to come over to help. Basically, they consolidated a lot of their European operations into Lisbon. So we came over under the D three into Portugal and I had a financial planning practice practice in Tampa, Florida.

And I basically closed that down, came over, really wasn't expecting to work at first when I was here.

And I kind of like said, man, all of the hurdles and learning experience I'm going through, this is very transferable to other people because at that time it was the middle of COVID, but you could just see there was a lot of interest in people moving. as it was expected when COVID, everybody was moving out of the big cities into the into the small towns during that time. And then I think there was a natural idea to say, well.

We don't just have to s move to the suburbs or the small little towns, we can move to Europe or somewhere place else. And so that's where this all kind of came about.

Arielle Tucker (02:35.062)

Yeah. And I I think it is important to highlight that you moved on with your wife's corporate assignment. And that is a very different process than if you're moving to Portugal to retire or you're self-employed. So it is a different process, but obviously so many of those skills are transferable when you actually are like living that move. And so many people are, you know, think that it starts with figuring out what my visa is or my taxes are or what the cost of living is going to look like. So let's

Mark Moberg (02:52.43)

Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (03:05.076)

kind of to that deeper question that you wanted to frame, which is what are you willing to change? Can you kind of talk us through that thought process of thinking all the steps versus what I might what am I actually willing to change to make this move work for me and my family?

Mark Moberg (03:22.767)

Sure. And this is for me probably the well for my first thing is is that I really truly believe most people when they're looking at making an international move

Really in the in the end, many times they've already made up their mind before they even come to talk to a financial planner or somebody about making the move. They're looking at the numbers to justify the move themselves. So they're actually in some ways even trying to justify it to their as I put in the book, they're justifying it to their brother-in-law who has all the doubts. You know, why are you doing this? And the numbers are there just to pro provide

validity and also to make sure that you don't just come to a a

complete disaster of a move, trying to avoid that that really big mistake. But people for us when we moved, it was something we wanted to do. We had thrown our hat into the ring, letting our my wife's family wife's company know that we were interested in it. And lo and behold they said, okay, here's the opportunity. And we kind of like, okay.

Arielle Tucker (04:14.061)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Moberg (04:42.189)

You know, now now reality hits you in the face. Now what do we do with this? And we still, even though we knew we wanted to do it, had to take a step back and think, okay, what does this really entail now? Now your your fantasy is becoming reality. And

Arielle Tucker (05:00.11)

Вічери. Кинвич са скарі.

Mark Moberg (05:03.203)

Yeah, yeah. And if you turned it down, you might not ever have that opportunity ever again. And that was part of the big issue for us. And and and it what turned it even more, and this is really the the crux of the book in many ways, is giving ourselves permission. And I find that to be one of the big issues when I talk to people now about moving is

They might want to go, but have they really given themselves permission to make this move? In other words, they might have decided that their mother might have a bigger they have given them by proxy the votes to allow them to move. And

First off, maybe their mother never wanted that to be the proxy, but maybe for my mom is an example. She was in her 80s and we moved. And that was a big issue for me because, you know, at 80, you know, you know that that that part of seeing her on a regular basis, she lived in the same town as us. You're making decisions that are you know affecting more than just you.

also get into a very near and dear to us was our at that time twelve year old in our move. we

Told them we were moving to Portugal and as I say, you know, we were the UN. We we you can protest, but we're moving. You know. So but that was dropped in their lap and that was hard for them. Now, did I have a lot of guilt over that? yeah. There are many times where I felt, especially at first, you know, that I was I took them away from their friends, from their network.

Mark Moberg (07:06.955)

and we're creating a new life. And and I will not sugarcoat it. The first six months was really tough, especially for them. Much harder than I had expected it. And in time though, now if you'd asked them would they want to go back, they'd said no.

They're fully engaged in being a person living in in the EU and they enjoy it here. And when we go back it's mostly seeing family and such, but they really are their roots are here in Europe now.

Arielle Tucker (07:47.617)

Yeah, kids are so resilient, but I do want to ask about your mom. I mean, was she encouraging this move? Was she guilt tripping this move? How did that how has that played out?

Mark Moberg (07:58.852)

Yeah. My mom, well, there's also a backstory to this because during COVID we went and spent a lot of time with my father in law who lived out of state and because he was living alone. So I w wasn't there to see my mom that much, obviously, living in Florida and and they were out of state. And then so when we came home

We were here less than four months before I this whole opportunity presented itself and so then we dropped that on them that we were moving. And it was tough. I mean, my mom didn't say no, don't go. you know, they I think part of it is is that well I might be part of our family makeup, but my

mom's mother, my grandmother. she came over from Sweden in her mid thirties. So maybe we have an independent streak in our family or something. But she was never gonna say no. we talk often and I I write openly about just it's it's tough because you're you're carrying

You're carrying decisions that you know are affecting other people and yet you're doing it anyway. because you're looking at it from what is the best interest of your family. but it's it's you know, that that doesn't get resolved. That's just something you have to live with.

Arielle Tucker (09:32.172)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (09:44.951)

Yeah, and I I know I've seen this in my practice, and I I'm sure you have as well, where there's this huge emotional weight. And sometimes it's discussed and sometimes it's not, right? All these, you know, interesting family dynamics come into play. But I've seen how it impacts relationships, how it can impact gifting or estate planning, right? and so it's kind of like there are levers and manipulation tactics.

That I've kind of seen play out that people don't always are always prepared for that emotional fallout, that it could potentially also be a bit of financial fallout. So again, I know this stuff is very individualized, but just something that I'm glad we're talking about this because sometimes I see these cases where I'm like, wow, I was would not have connected that dot to this one over here.

Mark Moberg (10:39.065)

Yeah, and it gets even more confusing when you're talking about estate planning, when you're throwing in the idea of some people I mean we we don't have this intention, but we do get asked on a regular basis, do you want to keep your US citizenship? And there is all kinds of ramifications from that purely from estate planning work. And you know

Arielle Tucker (10:57.656)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Moberg (11:08.927)

So there those are things that, you know, yes, you're not gonna move I mean you're gonna do what you think is the right thing for your family, but there's a lot of other things that could fall into place too. So, you know, it's I I always say it's like playing three D chess when you're living outside the United States because, you know, there's always another move underneath that you have to be considered about.

Arielle Tucker (11:33.613)

Yep, absolutely. And I I know we see that in our practices all the time. It's all the things you didn't know.

You don't know what you don't know, so you don't even know which questions to ask, which is why it's so important to partner with someone who has lived this and does it professionally. It's one thing if you if you've just lived it, right? It's another thing to have the technical background and experience to be able to kind of merge those together. And that is super, super unique and and so important in our our industry. the other thing that you had said that I wanted to circle back on was

Mark Moberg (11:42.03)

Yep.

Arielle Tucker (12:09.872)

That permission, giving permission. And I see this all the time as a financial planner. Like it might just be permission that you can retire or permission that you can buy the car or the second house, right? But I love this idea of you're having conversations with your family who surround you, they love you, they care about you. And if all of a sudden you present this with this idea like we're moving abroad now, that can feel really shocking and unnerving for if you have a, you know, a

whether that's close friends or family, it doesn't really matter, th they may be advocating for you looking you know, looking for at your situation and saying, my gosh, is this person having a midlife crisis?

Mark Moberg (12:52.612)

Well, I actually, you know, this one thing I in one of the titles in in in the chapters of the book is The Room That Nods. And it's all about that. Is that you will have friends that will give you the answer you want. You might have family that gives you a r the answer that they want.

And those could be conflicting with each other, but they're both nodding because they're they're trying, they're looking out for you, but as they're looking out for you based under their structure of knowing you. And what we do, and other people in the whole you know, expat.

Arielle Tucker (13:29.368)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Moberg (13:37.73)

helping people move and and live somewhere else is provide a hopefully an an ob objective, you know, looking at somebody's life that's not living that life or doesn't have a vested interest in them. and we can look at that look at what's going on and have just a different perspective of what's going on you know, with them and give them I you know, I just

give you my my two cents here. I ask all the time people about why they want to move. I mean if they want to change their environment, y you know, going from Tampa, Florida to Seattle

is gonna be a big change. You know, you don't have to go to Europe to make that happen, that that change. there what's what's making you think that this is gonna be the thing you want to do? And to really come up with, you know, your

I don't think you have to fight for this, but I think you have to have with an i a a legitimate idea of why you're trying to do this. And so that when the times get tough, there will be times in this whole move that you're gonna have some tough things to have to deal with, that the you know, keeping your eye on the prize so that you feel like you're wanting you're going where you wanna go.

Arielle Tucker (15:08.418)

Yeah, it is so important to understand your why deeply. And I love that example of Tampa, Tampa to Seattle, right? That checks the boxes of changing your environment without having to add the complexity of doing it in a different language and across an ocean. So it is really important to understand your why.

And you said you struggled for six months. I mean, there have been in different parts of our international move, we have languished for years of misery. That I'm like, why did we do this? How do I get off the bus? my gosh, I want to make it stop, right? And so it is really important to understand at the end of the day that core, core principle and write that down and say it all the time. Right. And if you're doing it for your kids or your future self or your family, I want to move over to your your

move into Portugal. I mean you guys moved as a family with school age children. So what kind of advice do you have for parents who are really worried about, you know, how are their kids going to adjust? And what did you what are some of the things that you and your family put into place to help them adjust?

Mark Moberg (16:16.691)

I well

I guess you'd say that we kind of came in naive and thought, you know, a move we went to an international school, so they still speak English and and they came over with us to see the school and kind of look at s Portugal six months before we actually moved. So, you know, it was like we all w went and f you know, kind of

Arielle Tucker (16:39.832)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Moberg (16:45.677)

Let them choose a school that they wanted to go to. Yes, if it was some place that was sorry, no, you're not going to that school. We would have stepped in. But you know, we gave them certainly voting issue power on this. And what we realized very quickly though was that this whole move was more you know, that was difficult. So then

I became a much more active parent at school to just be there. I volunteered more so that I was, you know, more, I guess you'd say, if something w needed to be helped or something, you know, I was there. And also just the fact that they knew that that I was on campus more for them.

we also spend a lot of time just getting them to I just get acclimated of things. And you know what they say about I think this is true for, you know, adults as kids, but you know, you just need that one friend.

And you know, things kind of open up from there. And I think part of the issue for us too is we started the school year in mid school. I would not suggest that. I would not suggest that if you can avoid that. But we were supposed to come earlier, but

Arielle Tucker (18:03.886)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (18:11.563)

yeah.

Mark Moberg (18:19.183)

Portuguese bureaucracy being what it is, it's notorious. It is slow. And so what we are are wanting to be here at the beginning of school year ended up being that we didn't get here. We actually flew in on Christmas Day. so yeah, yeah. Merry Christmas. So

Arielle Tucker (18:35.722)

my gosh. So the reality did not match the Instagram stories of affordable, easy, beautiful, stress fee. It's stress for free.

Mark Moberg (18:43.256)

No.

Mark Moberg (18:47.489)

No. No, we hit all the we hit all the the bad notes. COVID, so Portugal took COVID very seriously, very happy they did, but that meant we couldn't go out to eat hardly anywhere because the the cards that us Americans had, those were not accepted as being you know, valid.

Arielle Tucker (19:09.367)

the vaccine card the vaccine cards, yeah.

Mark Moberg (19:10.263)

Yeah, yes. Yeah. So we had to in order to go out, we literally had to go to a good place and, you know, take that swab up your nose till, you know, make you your you know, your eyes water. And that was good for like three to five days, I th I forget exactly, but you know, so you go to a restaurant then but we generally had to eat either outside in January. Yes, it's not snowing, but it rains and it's not, you know, it's windy and it's not great. And so we had that to deal with.

And you know, we we were in corporate housing s for the first month and I was looking for a new place. Could not find a place that we liked

Then we had also I could not find furniture because if you remember at that time furniture was like good luck, couldn't even find IKEA furniture. So then we had us our our searching went to saying, okay, we have to find a furnished place. That costs more money, obviously. And the choice of of places to live narrows down considerably then. So you know, there was just a

multitude of little things that you know you just never planned on.

Arielle Tucker (20:32.94)

Yeah. And I'm curious, did all of these experiences of of moving your own family into Portugal, is that what kind of really inspired this book, The Life Arbitrage? Is tell me a little bit more about about the book.

Mark Moberg (20:46.075)

yeah, it it did from a standpoint of of just you know the kind of the problems we went through kind of and saying, well, you know, here's a guy who is a financial planner and he still made mistakes along the way. but there was in as you said earlier, it's a lot of times it's the things that you think you know but you don't know.

That that's that even you know the research, and you know, granted we didn't have the AI that we do now, but you the the research was there, but you'd still find conflicting stories and conflicting answers. so yeah, I wrote the book to discuss my story, but I also have a lot of clients' stories. I mean, I don't have their names in there, but you know, I I've I've a lot of stories of people I've worked with.

And just so people have an honest idea of what it's like to move, I mean it's it's really broken up into three parts. What the first part is discussing the idea of moving, but not fr more from a psychological point of view. What is the you know, what does it take to move? What is that whole idea like and why would you want to move? Like we're saying, you know, instead of moving from Tampa to Seattle.

then from there there's a whole big part about taxes and healthcare and all the you know the the meat to it. And then the final is part is actually when you're here, what is that like to move here, you know, and actually live in Portugal. So but I think in the end you could strip out that middle chapter and really what it's all about is

Mark Moberg (22:41.263)

Thresholds. You're at one spot and then you want to go to another. What's that process like? How do you get yourself mentally ready to make those kind of moves? Because the threshold could be doesn't have to be financial. It could be, you know, retirement.

You know, and and and not even in the f in the financial but there's you know with there's a lot of people who don't like to retire, has nothing about the money, they have the money to retire, but

It's that identity that they're losing as as someone who works and giving that up and understanding what that process is. And that's really what happens when you move, is you're establishing a new identity and you're giving up. People here don't know you. You're gonna come in and they're gonna look at you, yeah, you're we can tell that your Portuguese is really bad and you probably are from America. We just tell that by looking at you. And they immediately switch from Portuguese.

Arielle Tucker (23:18.563)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Moberg (23:44.702)

to English and you know that doesn't help your Portuguese at all. But you know, it it's so there you're having to establish an identity again. And so that's that whole process is really what I was really wanting to talk about in the book.

Arielle Tucker (24:00.558)

I think that's such a good point. And I think we we often forget that part of the part of the process of the move. It is so exhausting to establish a new identity. You are no longer, you know, this this great worker or this amazing academic or you know friend, aunt, uncle, whatever, that you all all of your identities that you had in your community in your old life are stripped away, and you have to become an entirely new person.

And I know personally some there's some days I just go around and I just feel like an idiot all the time. And I'm like, I swear I'm smart in some things, some aspects of my life. But you have to kind of like constantly validate that and build that up. So I I love that angle from that book. That's really such an important thing. Christine, you're you're early. You're very early. We're we're recording, so I'm gonna let you go.

Mark Moberg (25:01.423)

We good? Okay.

Arielle Tucker (25:03.078)

we you know what I'm gonna rewind because I felt like that was such an important thing and I don't wanna miss that. So I'm just gonna have our editor I'm making lots of clapping signs to s to say to to stop that. We'll I'll let her cut that.

Mark Moberg (25:08.398)

Yeah, yeah.

Mark Moberg (25:13.463)

All good. Yes, yes.

Arielle Tucker (25:23.456)

And then we'll go to our last question now. So for a family who's just sitting in the US and they've been thinking about moving, and this right now is like 40% of Americans are actively thinking and searching, maybe I should move abroad, maybe I should move to Portugal. What is the first honest conversation that they need to have as a core family or even just as a couple?

Mark Moberg (25:50.852)

Going back to you know go this the Simon Cynic, know your why. Understand what what is it, what is it moving you? no one has to judge. I think that's the most important thing is is that there's no judgment and there shouldn't be. There's people do things for their own reasons, and you should hear them out and understand them. What's interesting is

have might have a husband and wife who might have different wives and one is moving because they want to and the other one is moving because their spouse wants to. And that has to be understood and acknowledged I think before you know you make a move like this.

Arielle Tucker (26:34.083)

Mm-hmm.

Mark Moberg (26:44.591)

it's not to say you don't do it, but I think that you just need to understand where all the all the players are at before you you make a move. Once you understand your why, it's really then understanding okay, so a lot of people want to move, but I would say it's a small fraction who actually do move. And a lot of those

reasons for people not moving is because honestly they probably and it goes back to they haven't given themselves permission to do it. And once you understand those processes and understanding more about yourself and maybe maybe you find out your why and your how could mean that you only have to move from Florida to North Carolina.

And you'll have all answered all the questions you really are really want to do. and that's perfectly fine. That's great. In in essence, then the whole process has been worth it. but from there, then let's discuss the money and let's discuss the actual

strategy and in sequencing because the sequencing is very important as well as we both know. But but I really feel that that's the route where you should start and get those things understood and then you can build upon it.

Arielle Tucker (28:15.19)

Yeah. Yeah. Mark, that is so powerful. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. We'll be sure to link your book, Th The Life Arbitrage, Permission to Have Dessert, in your sho in our show notes so that people can go and find that book. Thank you again for joining us today. I really appreciate your time.

Mark Moberg (28:32.368)

It's fun. Thanks.