Your Indian Bank Account Has to Become an NRO Account

Arielle Tucker (00:01.186)

For first generation Indian immigrants in the US, financial planning often spans two countries two tax systems, two currencies, and two sets of family expectations. Holding Indian assets, investing in Indian mutual funds, managing NRE or NRO accounts, and planning for aging parents can all create US tax and reporting issues most people are not prepared for. Today on Passport to Wealth, I'm speaking with Amal Dessai.

CFP and CFA and founder of Perceptive Wealth Advisors, all about US India cross-border planning. Amal, thank you so much for joining me today.

Amol Desai (00:41.83)

Thank you, Ariel. Thank you for having me.

Arielle Tucker (00:44.46)

Okay, so I wanna jump right into it today. Can you talk to us a little bit about your own journey from India to the US and how you ended up doing financial planning?

Amol Desai (00:56.646)

Sure, sure. So I came to Ind to the US first time in back in fall of 2003 as a master's in engineering student. And before I tell you about what happened in the US, I just want to mention one thing that I grew up in the eighties and nineties in Mumbai, India. And around the nineties, there was liberalization of Indian economy that was going on. I was still an engineering student, but

That was certainly happening at the back end and I was observing the growth happening in India and all that. And I probably that is the seed of curiosity about learning economics and finance in me, but that was dormant. And when I went when I came to US as an engineering student, I completed my masters in mechanical engineering. I was working so back in two thousand six, two thousand seven, that was my first job in the US. I started

knowing more about 401k plans and filing my tax returns and all that. And I started saving money and sending back to India to invest because that's where the familiarity was. and then 2008 financial crisis hit. And that's where my interest in finance again reignited. I started reading a lot and since I was investing back in India, it was a personal money involved. So that

I'm I'm I'm starting understanding how the two countries' financial systems work together. and slowly as that knowledge grew, I was observing similar questions that my friends had whether to participate in 401k or still send money back to India, invest there, whether that growth rate is better or not. And then slowly I started realizing that there is no professional advice people like us are getting.

Whatever advice is advice is available is pretty traditional. if you go to a professional financial advisor, but most of the time advice was coming from family and friends, and nobody of them knew two systems at the same time. So I saw there is a gap there and that pulled me into being a financial advisor for US India cross border.

Amol Desai (03:13.36)

planning focus for first generation Indian immigrants specifically. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (03:17.9)

Yeah, so when we're talking about those first generation Indian immigrants, they are in my head, and this is my perception. Tell me if I'm wrong in it. they're coming from wealthy families, right? They're generally coming from, you know, educated families who want to send their kids to the US to have a US education, to be able to work and build wealth in the US. So there's money there to kind of start with, but what you're saying is

Amol Desai (03:20.646)

Yeah.

Amol Desai (03:26.512)

Yes. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (03:46.836)

Everything's been done within the Indian system and now we have to kind of transpose the US system over it and

Amol Desai (03:51.011)

So far, yes. Correct. Until they come yes, yes, until they come to US. I'm sorry for interrupting. But you're right. but I mean the people who come to U to US, not necessarily they are always from a wealthy background. It is true that they are from educated families, mostly they are middle class or upper middle class families. but yes, the dream is to come to the US, get higher education,

get good job, learn from experiences and build wealth in the long term.

Arielle Tucker (04:25.728)

Mm-hmm. And are you finding that the people that you've been supporting and having conversations with, are they planning on being in the US long term? Are they planning on going back to India? Or like a lot of, you know, globally mobile families, they're really not sure of where they're gonna go next.

Amol Desai (04:39.793)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (04:44.538)

Yeah, so when I came in two thousand three, all my friends they are still here. most of them come here to get education and experience and go back to India after five, ten years. That's how it starts. But once they are I mean once they are ingrained in the system and slowly they start building life here, most likely they will stay here. Just recently there are many visa issues coming on, so many people are

Arielle Tucker (04:58.338)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (05:13.766)

thinking of returning back to India. so that I can observe that also. But mo most of the people they are here on their green cards and ultimately citizenship.

Arielle Tucker (05:23.99)

Okay. And so tell me about some of the unique challenges that these people face as they get their first jobs or they're, you know, highly educated, highly compensated, they're coming in to fill a need in the US economy. What are some of the challenges that they're facing right off the bat and their maybe even their first year of living in the US?

Amol Desai (05:45.54)

Mm-hmm. Sure. So so like I said, because they come from India and US is a newer country to them, there is still that familiarity bias going on, that the system they know is Indian system. So they are thinking from that perspective. And first question that comes to their mind is whether to contribute to four hundred one K or not. Because this is just first year of job. Many of them still have in mind that they might go back five years, ten years down the line.

so is it even worth to contribute to 401k? They because of that familiarity bias, sometimes they tend to ignore the employer match that they are getting. in my personal case, I thought that I know Indian system so well that I will send money back there, I will pick some good mutual funds in India, they will give me good returns. That may be enough to outweigh the employer match and whatever I'm getting in.

US. That time I was completely unaware of forex risk and all that. But things like that happen, not just me, but many people like like me in their first year of job. Yeah, but that's that's the familiarity bias. There is again the compliance bias. I don't think that PFIC and those reporting requirement requirements were there back in 2006-2007. Sorry, when I first started my job.

Arielle Tucker (06:45.015)

Hm, okay.

Amol Desai (07:08.151)

But since that FATCA came into play, all those requirements are there now. and many newcomers don't know about it. So that compliance complication also exists in in people who are newly settling in the US that come from India. And that is on the US side. On the India side also, they used to have regular bank accounts like saving accounts.

And the R Reserve Bank of India, the central bank there, they have a regulation called FEMA, Foreign Exchange Monitoring Act. And that doesn't allow non-resident Indian to hold the regular domestic savings account. They have to convert their bank accounts to NRE or NRO status. And some many many times they don't know it or they ignore it and they still maintain those accounts. And that can be potentially a risky thing.

Arielle Tucker (07:55.639)

Okay.

Amol Desai (08:05.477)

for future. so things like that that make I mean US India cross border life a little complicated when you first come to US and start working, basically.

Arielle Tucker (08:15.478)

And we talk about this a lot in the cross-border world, right? You are when you were walking and working within two systems, one of those systems being the US system, you put on financial handcuffs. You can't operate within the normal full US system.

Amol Desai (08:18.411)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (08:30.664)

Or the normal full in in this case in the Indian system. So can you talk to us? Because I haven't heard the term NRE or NRO. And I actually am learning something today because I didn't realize that if you are a non resident Indian, you can't hold a normal bank account in India? That seems crazy to me. So talk us through what that actually means. Okay.

Amol Desai (08:39.771)

Sure. Sure.

Amol Desai (08:50.436)

Yeah. No, it is yeah. So it's just the classification how the central bank classifies that account. They are normal accounts just like any other savings accounts. But they are categorized as NRE or NRO. So NRE is non-resident external and NRO is non-resident ordinary. So the purposes of two things are are different. So NRE account is to hold money which came from outside of India.

So for example, I'm working in the US and I'm sending my savings back to India. They can go into NRE account. Okay. But let's say before coming to US, I had some real estate in India. I sell that and I get the proceeds. Or my parents or some of my friends gifts me some money. So that money was originated in India. So that cannot enter the NRE account. It has to go into NRO account.

So NRO account is to accumulate money generated within India. And NRE account is to store money that came from outside India. I think it is for the central bank just to monitor the track different transactions. I think that that is the purpose.

Arielle Tucker (09:48.014)

Okay.

Arielle Tucker (10:06.016)

Is there was gonna say, is there like a tax reason? Is this in is there you know how in the US, right, we have s a citizenship based taxation, or if you're a green card, your tax is a citizen, if you're a visa holder, your tax is a US tax resident. Is there a similar system in India? W why are they trying to track where all this money is going?

Amol Desai (10:12.047)

Yeah. Citizenship. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (10:24.608)

I think so so remember when I said this NRE NRO accounts, that regulation is called FEMA, Foreign Exchange Monitoring Act. So I think it is to monitor foreign exchange activity, what comes in India and what is generated within India. So if if something comes in India, obviously it comes in dollar or pound or whatever, whoever is living in other country. That currency gets sold and rupee gets bought and then the money gets deposited in the account, right?

Arielle Tucker (10:32.526)

Hm.

Amol Desai (10:52.357)

So they just want to track that foreign exchange transactions separately, then the money that gets generated within India. From tax perspective, so I think these NRE NRO accounts purpose is just from that perspective. but to answer your tax system question, I think India has residency based. if you become an Indian resident, then you are taxed on your income that you generated from all over the world. If you are not resident there,

Arielle Tucker (11:06.743)

Okay.

Amol Desai (11:21.839)

then India doesn't tax it. And I think I mean US is pretty different. I mean, once you become a US tax resident, then wherever you live in the world, you you can't escape the US tax system, right?

Arielle Tucker (11:34.402)

Which has to be a consideration for people who are Indian, they move into the Indian system, they decide they want to become green card holders and then eventually citizens. And then at some point maybe they want to leave the US to go pursue other opportunities or retire in India. They're still very much tied to the US tax and financial system, even if they have physically left. Yeah.

Amol Desai (11:37.251)

Yes.

Amol Desai (11:42.949)

Yeah.

Amol Desai (11:48.453)

Correct.

Amol Desai (11:57.231)

Correct. That's correct. And it it's it's a very complicated area. I mean my niche is basically incoming immigrants, first generation immigrants from India to the US. So that's why that's that's who I cater the most. But you are right. This question, the outbound planning is also important for people who are going back to India. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (12:08.952)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (12:15.682)

Yeah. Okay, so talking through the new arrivals.

Do they have a lot of surprises around maybe like filing F bars, right? They prep they likely have what you were saying in the beginning, you were doing the right thing, right, by sending money back to India because you understood the Indian system, investing potentially in Indian mutual funds. So I imagine a lot of Indians are kind of coming in. When did you realize there were potentially some tax issues or reporting issues with having?

Amol Desai (12:31.343)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (12:37.018)

Yes.

Arielle Tucker (12:49.904)

having all these investments in assets outside of the US.

Amol Desai (12:52.788)

Yes, yes. So so why my first job was in late or late two thousand six and to two thousand seven. That's when I started sending money to India. I don't think there was any problem at that time. My money was getting invested, it was getting good returns in terms of rupee terms, and I think we will talk about the foreign exchange risk later, but everything was going fine. But I think starting twenty twelve, twenty thirteen,

I s I started getting emails from some of the mutual fund companies that they no longer accept US-based persons as investors. So I needed to get out of it. And I had no idea wh why that was happening. And by the time 2016-2017 came, I came to know about FATCA. Basically, if a mutual fund company doesn't comply with FATCA, then they can't accept US and Canada-based investors.

In their mutual funds, that is on the corporate side. And that triggered it. So I started researching more. And that that is the time I came to know that mutual fund companies are getting categorized as PFIC companies, PFIC, that is passive foreign income companies, foreign investment companies, right? And they have a different tax statement in the US. And depending on how much financial assets you have in a foreign country.

Arielle Tucker (13:50.21)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (14:17.302)

IRS or or or US government makes you file a couple of forms. So one of that form is F bar. And the limit is I mean you I I'm sure you know it that ten thousand dollars in aggregate if you hold more than that in foreign country, you have to report F bar. So that's how I came to know about it back in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen.

Arielle Tucker (14:34.52)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (14:40.398)

And then of course that form eighty nine thirty eight. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (14:40.428)

Yeah, and I think

Arielle Tucker (14:44.694)

Yeah, there are so many and and the f these forms that we're talking about, they don't necessarily have any tax associated, tax due associated with them. It's really much more about compliance, like reporting what assets you have abroad. So I'm curious when you're working with your clients who have recently arrived, I mean, are Indian families often doing proactive gifting?

Amol Desai (14:53.572)

Correct.

Amol Desai (15:00.462)

Yes.

Arielle Tucker (15:10.702)

of assets to their children? Are they coming in with a lot of assets already? Or is it more a case where they're potentially preparing to receive assets at a later date, either through like, you know, larger gifts later in life or inheritance. And how does that change the conversations that you kind of can support your clients with as they think about inheritance or gifting issues?

Amol Desai (15:36.606)

sure. So I I don't think that they are talking about it or that is on their mind when they come here. but it should be on their mind, that's what my experience tells me. I went through a recent client case. he's a US citizen person. he went to India, one of his parents passed away, and they have a real estate in their family.

Which is not getting used. Nobody was staying there anymore. And it was held jointly by by the mother and father. Right. Now only one parent is left as an owner. And then the discussion came. i in the mother's will, that property was supposed to go to that son. but now because it was held jointly, it has to go to the father. So will was actually irrelevant because of the legal ownership.

of that property. But then the the thought came that why can't they gift it to the sun? And then I I did an analysis whether gifting right now is a better proposition or waiting for inheritance maybe 10 years, 15 years down the line. Because there is a step up in cost basis on the US side, right? As a US citizen, he is liable for paying taxes on his global income.

So, whenever this person sells this property in India, there will be capital gains generated and he will have to pay that capital gain if he owns it today. But if he waits until inheritance, then there is a step-up in cost basis from the US side and there will not be any capital gains. So that sounds very attractive. But because of the foreign exchange risk, gifting becomes better.

so just to give an example, so let's let's say this property was worth two crore rupees, that that is almost equivalent to two hundred thousand dollars, which is like a moderate size property in a second tier city. historically that area real estate was growing at about six percent. and let's assume that if if he sells that property and brings money in the US and invests it here, he can earn seven to eight percent in the any index fund.

Amol Desai (18:01.929)

But also look at the rupee depreciation against dollar. So on an annualized basis for last 15 years, 30 years, you pick any period, long-term period, it is generally getting depreciated 4 to 5%. So when you incorporate all these assumptions and actually do the calculations, scenario A being you take the property in your name today as a gift, you sell it, bring the money to the US, and invest it in the US. That is scenario A.

Scenario B is let it be in your parents' name. Their life expectancy is let's say 10 years. So after 10 years, you are going to get this property, you are going to sell it, bring the money to the US. So on so in the same timeline, you are comparing two figures, right? So gifting versus inheritance. So the gifting scenario will put you ahead by almost 160 to 180,000. That was the calculation.

Arielle Tucker (19:00.876)

Hundred and sixty to two hundred thousand. Is that what you said? hundred and sixty to a hundred and eighty thousand. You're up in this calculation if you were to do the gifting. Wow, okay. And I'm curio I I am a little curious what do you also are you must also be weighing the Indian laws on top of all of this and how do they fit together?

Amol Desai (19:02.541)

Hundred correct. Hundred and hundred and sixty to hundred and eighty, depending on how the exchange rate.

Amol Desai (19:12.417)

Correct. Correct. Correct. So that

Amol Desai (19:25.897)

Yes. So in in in India, yeah, in India there is no step up in basis. So it doesn't matter whether you receive it in gift or or in inheritance. Your original cost basis is just transfers. And you will have to pay taxes in India as it is. Right? It's it's the US system you are trying to avoid the taxes using step up in basis. Right? And yes, you save on taxes, but you just lose so much on.

Arielle Tucker (19:32.112)

okay.

Arielle Tucker (19:38.36)

Okay.

Arielle Tucker (19:42.807)

Okay.

Arielle Tucker (19:48.376)

Cara.

Amol Desai (19:54.354)

ru rupee depreciation over the years that it doesn't make sense to wait for inheritance, rather receive it as a gift, convert it to US dollars and invest it in the US. If that is what your goal is, yeah.

Arielle Tucker (20:06.998)

Okay, can I can I ask a question about the rupee depreciation? Because look, I remember five years ago having fights with clients about adding more global diversification into their portfolio. And when we looked at the past 10, 15 years, 20 years, the US had outperformed every market. I mean, it was so hot and international was down and no one wanted international.

Amol Desai (20:10.947)

Sure.

Amol Desai (20:21.271)

Yes. Yes.

Amol Desai (20:30.873)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Arielle Tucker (20:34.022)

And when we're talking about globally mobile families, we have to kind of incorporate the right currency risk into their life. So I'm curious, in the last year, we saw the depreciation of the dollar. How did that impact the Indian rupee? Was the Indian rupee still down or did it kind of do a correction like it did with it's still down?

Amol Desai (20:37.527)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (20:48.482)

Yes.

Amol Desai (20:54.807)

No, it is still down. Yes, yes, dollar depreciated, but currency is always very complicated and it's tough. Yes, dollar weakened, but relative to dollar, rupee weakened even further. And you and you can't really predict it. There are some periods, I mean, if you look history of dollar rupee rate since 1980s, you can find periods of three years or four years where rupee actually strengthened versus dollar. But

Arielle Tucker (21:00.846)

Mm.

Arielle Tucker (21:06.732)

Wow, okay. That's so that's really interesting. Yeah.

Amol Desai (21:22.893)

But that's a hope that that will keep happening in future. And hope is not a strategy, right? I mean, if you look at the historical evidence and data, it shows that four to five percent is the average. You you take any decade, any rolling five year or ten year number of rupee depreciation versus dollar, you will get four point seven percent depreciation, four point eight percent depreciation. It's pretty consistent.

Arielle Tucker (21:27.906)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (21:43.907)

Wow, okay.

Then I'm sure that again, we're talking about this behavioral bias that that we all have. We right. So how do you navigate that with your clients who I'm sure are have they're super highly educated, super smart friends who've gone back to India to start companies and they wanna invest in? I mean, how do you support clients who are, yes, we're aware of the depreciation of the rupee, but we still believe in the brain power of of what

Amol Desai (21:50.243)

Yes.

Yes.

Amol Desai (22:02.69)

Yeah.

Amol Desai (22:11.0)

Yes.

Arielle Tucker (22:16.504)

what's going on in India, how do you navigate that conversation?

Amol Desai (22:19.892)

Yeah. So so I always tell what is what is the end goal here? I mean it it's not one solution that fits everybody. If your end goal is going back to India and staying there permanently, then yes, you can't bring everything in the US. You need that diversification and ultimately you have to look at I mean, wherever your living expenses is, where your life is, the currency of that that region basically. And you need to have some assets saved in that region.

But if you are going to live in US permanently and you are only looking at India for investments, you can always get that emerging market exposure through ETFs in US that are pretty cost efficient. Right? You are investing in dollars, you are getting returns in dollars. In the ETF that is exposed to India, China, and all the emerging markets and whatever. By sending money directly to India, you are taking that foreign exchange risk yourself. You don't know how to manage it professionally.

Arielle Tucker (23:04.344)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (23:17.6)

And plus you are taking on the burden of reporting it correctly in the US, declaring that F bar form and 8938 and then PFIC basically that form 8606 that comes with 1040. Yeah, and I had an argument with a client, not argument, but some brainstorming with a client about that also. He all he had a significant amount in Indian mutual funds. He permanently stays here.

He had no idea about that it is categorized as p p fake and it gets very burdensome tax statement in the US. So I explained that to him. So he looped me in with his advisor on the India side. And the India side advisor was also completely unaware of that. And it is not surprising, it's pretty common because they don't have to learn the US system in their jurisdiction, right? They are they are yeah.

Arielle Tucker (24:11.264)

Yeah, of course. Why would they? Yeah.

Amol Desai (24:13.974)

And he asked me that question. Then he has so many non resident Indian clients who are in the US. They all hold this mutual fund. And why nobody has flagged it? I said, I don't know why they didn't flag it. Most likely they don't know the the rules. But these are the rules, and it will be very burdensome for my client to hold that mutual fund. And then he started asking me that that mutual fund company accepts US based clients. So I said that is related to FATCA.

FATCA has two sides. One is for the investor to report in the US, but other one on the corporate side. I mean if mutual fund company complies with FATCA in India, they are allowed to accept US and Canada based investors. So as long as that mutual fund company is complying with that, they advertise that they they accept the US clients, but ultimately reporting it correctly, the tax situation, that burden falls on the individual investor.

And there has to be some professional guiding that investor in the right way. That yes, it is legal to hold the mutual fund. There is no illegality in that. But it's extremely burdensome from tax perspective on the US side. Yeah. So that

Arielle Tucker (25:25.698)

I'm so glad you you you are sharing the story because it is a story that I hear of every advisor, th every cross-border advisor. We have the US tax expert or the US financial advisor, and then we've got the remaining old guard from in the in the in the either now new country that they live in or their old country that they lived in. And this system that they had before.

Amol Desai (25:47.704)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (25:52.469)

Once they become a US connected person, just no longer works for them. And so, yeah, technically, legally, can they invest in this? Yes. Is it going to be very expensive? Basically, eat all of the returns to just be able to manage the compliance of it.

Amol Desai (25:54.818)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (26:08.824)

Probably also, yes. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (26:08.856)

Probably also, yes. So does it still make sense? Does this investment still make sense for that person? Probably not. So you really have to do that whole analysis. But this goes back to I'm thinking about the conversation I just had with the DT, where if you don't even know what the question is, you're never gonna get the right answer. And of course, your local advisor who has no US training, like this is not logical at all that they would have to think about an yeah.

Amol Desai (26:20.802)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Amol Desai (26:33.92)

It's not. And and they are they are thinking on two layers, right? I mean, first of all, they don't need to know the US side. So they are not incentivized to do that. And then there is a conflict of interest also that if they start losing investors or getting out of mutual funds, b and their they they their title is financial advisor, but most likely they are financial salespeople. So so there are two two things that are happening there. So so you can't blame them, yeah.

Arielle Tucker (26:59.97)

And which is a great question. You should always ask, regardless of what language, figure out what is fiduciary in your in your country, right? In the US, we are fiduciaries. We are held to, you know, the the best interest of of our clients. That's important across the board with whoever you are working with. Amal, we are just about out of time, so I really want to get our last question in today. for

Amol Desai (27:06.557)

Yes. Yes.

Amol Desai (27:14.806)

Yes. Correct. That is correct.

Amol Desai (27:22.295)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (27:24.398)

newly arrived Indian immigrants in the US, how do you like, what kind of pointers can you give them to just get help them like get organized and kind of I would imagine it's very overwhelming suddenly being in the US financial system. So what tips can you give our listeners today?

Amol Desai (27:38.647)

Yes.

Yes. So I mean the most important thing we just talked about that you have to talk with the right professional on both sides. Don't just talk to your family and friends because they they may be well meaning and they are telling you something based on their experience, but they do not necessarily know the technical aspects of the co or the complexities involved in a two-country situation, basically. So go talk to some advisor when you are

Interviewing an advisor, ask them if they have specific experience of US and their own country, whether it's India or UK or what whatever. You need to have the professional need to have that, those two country experiences. and you need to have that in both the countries, US side as well as India side. that is the first thing. choose the right professional to help you. Other thing I would want to emphasize is

start having conversation within family as well. Because we we just discussed gifting and inheritance and all that, right? All that is technically good, good analysis. That that is good. But whether that makes sense for those parents, we don't know. And sometimes to avoid the US reporting burden, they put their assets in their parents' name. The kids kids also in the US, they put their assets in their parents' name or sibling name or something.

And culturally, Indian families are their assets, financial affairs are pretty commingled many times. It's it it doesn't feel good to them to talk about money within family. It's always a sensitive topic. But

Arielle Tucker (29:21.098)

that's so that's messy. So all the money's together but also we don't talk about it?

Amol Desai (29:25.833)

Yeah, I mean it can get messy. It depends on family to family. Not every family is the same. But culturally generally there are few people who talk very openly and very organized for about financial affairs. So that is that is the one suggestion I would give that have open communication because if this practice keeps on happening years after years, it's very hard to know which money is whose, right? I mean the the the the immigrant kid in the US sent some money to India.

Arielle Tucker (29:27.83)

Okay. Yeah.

Amol Desai (29:55.041)

He knows that these $100,000 are his, but they are in parents' account. But if the sibling doesn't know, and when parents eventually pass away, the inheritance times come, there may be family disputes. And nobody likes that, right? And even gifting versus inheritance scenario, you have to first make sure that parents' lifestyle needs, healthcare needs are taken care of. Everybody in the family is on board, and then implement it.

Arielle Tucker (30:07.63)

Mm.

Amol Desai (30:22.709)

So doing the technical analysis is the easy thing. But actually implementing is you you need everybody on board. Basically, that's the point I wanted to make.

Arielle Tucker (30:31.214)

Absolutely. Amal, thank you so much for sharing that last point and tip with us today. I really appreciate you joining us and sharing your your lived experience. I mean, I I I find your story so powerful because you've lived it and also have the CFP and the CFA behind to to back all of this up. super impressive. Thank you for being part of the Passport to Wealth Advisory Directory as well, so people can continue to find and connect with you there. Thank you for joining us today and we'll talk to you soon.

Amol Desai (30:43.35)

Mm-hmm.

Amol Desai (30:59.48)

Thank you, Ariel. It was my pleasure and I enjoyed it as well. Thank you.