The Reluctant Expat's Honest Story

Arielle Tucker (00:01.122)

Twenty-ish years ago, today's guest packed up her New York City life for what her husband promised would be a two-year adventure. How many times have we heard that, Dina? Like so many times, right? She didn't want to go. She loved New York. Two years turned into three in Cyprus, then ten in Copenhagen, and then a move to Germany. And you're still in Germany today.

Dina Honour (00:11.08)

So many times.

Dina Honour (00:24.54)

We are still inju actually we are just coming up on our four year anniversary in August. We'll have been in in Berlin for four years. So yeah.

Arielle Tucker (00:32.312)

Wow, okay, so yeah, tur, you know, nearly two decades later, married into a mixed American-British household and somehow turning all of it into books. If you've ever wondered what Expat Life actually feels like once the honeymoon phase wears off, then this is the episode for you. I'm talking with author and SE SAS Dina Honor about what it takes to build a life abroad you didn't choose.

Dina Honour (00:44.143)

Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (01:00.064)

And why she now calls it one of the best decisions her and her and her family ever made. Dina, welcome to Passport to Wealth.

Dina Honour (01:07.73)

Thank you so much for having me, Ariel. It's great to be here.

Arielle Tucker (01:13.048)

Thank you. Okay, so you've described yourself as the reluctant expat. So can you kind of take us back almost 20 years ago, right? To yeah. Yeah. To kind of talk us through this initial move and like what did what did that reluctance kind of look like for you in year one?

Dina Honour (01:18.567)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (01:22.49)

Almost twenty years. Yeah, I think it's eighteen years this year.

Dina Honour (01:35.036)

so I I like you say I referred to myself as a reluctant expat because it's not something I'd ever even thought about doing. growing up near Boston and then moving to New York when I was eighteen and living there for twenty years by the time we moved. And I loved New York City. I feel like New York City is a part of my DNA, it's part of the the woman I became and am. and I was happy there, as as tough as life can be.

in New York City with two young kids. I wa I was perfectly happy. my husband at that point had been there for ten years. So we we had a life there. And he's always been a more adventurous soul than me. And we knew that there was a possibility of of moving abroad. there there might be an opportunity with his job. Yes.

Arielle Tucker (02:24.385)

Did you know this when you were getting married?

Dina Honour (02:28.86)

But it was so far, it was so far in the future. And it was always one of those kind of semi-serious things. And we would have conversations. And I think at one point it was, you know, okay, if if you know this one place ever comes up as an option, I'll consider it. Never thinking, you know, for one minute that this this this place would ever come up as an option. And and of course it did. and it came up about three months after we had our

Second son. So you know, there we are, and I think I how I start my second book. You know, we're we're in the bedroom and my little baby is snoring in the and the bassinet, and he turns around and says, So there's this job. and I still didn't want to go.

Even though it made sense. And I think when we talked it through and on paper it made sense. but there was a there was still a big part of me that that was reluctant to go, and that reluctance lasted a long time. A long time. you know, I think that first year was

Spent kind of trying to lift our New York City life up wholesale and kind of plonk it down on you know on this little Mediterranean island. And there was a lot of crying, there was a lot of second guessing. my husband was we had, yeah, a four-year-old and a six-month-old. And you know, I think my life had changed.

Arielle Tucker (03:55.313)

you had two children under the age of two or three, so yes, a lot of cra

Dina Honour (04:04.976)

Yeah, 180 degrees. You know, I'd gone from living in Brooklyn and living in a you know, living in New York City. I was working. I, you know, I was a mom to two young kids to living, you know, in the middle of a you know, in the middle of Cyprus, this little tiny, you know, Mediterranean island. I was a housewife, suddenly, you know, I wasn't working. I had two two very young kids, one who didn't sleep.

And I didn't know who I was anymore. I think that was that was a a big part of it was I didn't recognize myself. And I was surrounded by people telling me that, you know, what a great opportunity and you're living on a, you know, this island and the weather is great. And I hated it. You know, I I was miserable and I couldn't reconcile how I was feeling with how I felt like I I should be feeling. so yeah, that was that was difficult. It was a lot of crying.

Ha ha.

Arielle Tucker (05:00.107)

That theme of reconciling how I think I should feel or how others think I should feel versus how I actually feel, that is a recurring theme with so many trailing spouses that I meet, myself included in the beginning of my expat journey, especially when you're going through all of these transitions, while also becoming a mother or as a young mother to y like to to young children. I think I hear I hear

Dina Honour (05:08.188)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (05:26.118)

Yes. Y There are a lot of similarities, I think. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (05:30.059)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious, you talked about being open to moving abroad for the right place. Was it Cyprus in particular that was the right place or was it just that particular offer or particular region?

Dina Honour (05:41.661)

No.

Dina Honour (05:46.181)

It was that particular offer because I thought that offer would never become a reality. So it wasn't necessarily

Arielle Tucker (05:51.222)

Okay.

Dina Honour (05:55.493)

I would, you know, I'm open to moving abroad if it's, you know, X, Y, and Z. it was more if that place and, you know, if Cyprus comes up thinking that it will never come up because there's, you know, one one offer that could come up every, you know, 15 years. And if if someone who's been working there a long time, you know, has a heart attack at their desk and suddenly a vacancy opens up. And so I never thought it would I never thought it would happen. so it was an easy way to kind of placate.

my husband's adventurousness while not outright saying no no way yeah

Arielle Tucker (06:26.167)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (06:32.929)

Yeah. So you already mentioned your hu husband is British and then you're American. So I imagine that sh I mean, he's already been living as an expat for, you know, over ten years. So for him going to Cyprus, is that a feeling like he's going home in a way? I. He's like moving back to Europe, even though it's not the you know, the UK, but was that any of the draw was to be closer to his family at all?

Dina Honour (06:36.806)

Yes.

Dina Honour (06:45.169)

Yes.

Dina Honour (06:57.104)

Yeah.

No. I think that sounds horrible. If you're watching Linda and Derek, no. I think it's he

Arielle Tucker (07:01.609)

Okay.

Dina Honour (07:09.82)

traveled before we met. You know, he had he had spent time traveling as a solo traveler throughout Indonesia and Thailand and, you know, I think when you listen to him tell those stories even thirty five years later, his his face lights up. so he's always been a more adventurous soul than than I have been. And even though I moved from kind of small town New England to New York City by myself and and that had its own challenges, there was still the safety of of

Living in your own kind of passport country. I mean, you know the norms, you know the culture, you know. I always say you know who you can kind of offend and swear at without, you know, too much, too many detrimental side effects. So I think, yeah, I think for him it was a bit of an adventure. there were also some there were definitely some career aspects to it. He was kind of, you know, had kind of hit a ceiling in his job, and this was kind of a

loophole that we had explored which was another reason that the whole thing kind of made sense on paper. It was a way for him to to kind of move up in his career and skipping a few steps. That loophole closed about six months after we moved which added a whole different element to into that first year. But yeah, so he's always been he's always been a little bit more open to

Arielle Tucker (08:19.959)

Hm.

Arielle Tucker (08:27.957)

Wow.

Dina Honour (08:38.864)

you know, to t to kind of change and adventure.

Arielle Tucker (08:43.253)

Okay, so you were only in Cyprus for three years, correct?

Dina Honour (08:49.818)

A little over three years, yeah, a little over three years.

Arielle Tucker (08:52.077)

Okay. And so then what prompted the move then to Copenhagen?

Dina Honour (08:56.442)

So we so our first year in Cyprus was was was brutal, I would say. That's the word that I use now. Looking back, I'm able to kind of parse through the reasons why. but it was it was a really tough year for me. And it was a tough year for him because I think that he worried that he had picked up, you know, his family and and moved them someplace where where they were unhappy. So it was it was a hard year. after that first year, everything started to fall into place a little bit.

and you know, we made friends, we knew our way around, we were more comfortable. I was more comfortable driving. I didn't, you know, I had to learn to drive on the the left-hand side of the road after not driving in New York City for 20 years. and but there was still a sense of we didn't want to be there. It was a very, it's a very small, it's a very small island. I felt very far away, I felt very isolated. and this loophole that I had been talking about had closed. So there was

bit of panic on on my part like how are you going to get us out of here and we had these Tuesday conversations where we would go out for you know a cup of coffee and he called them free fall tuesdays and it was every every Tuesday it you know it started to like right what are you doing what is on the horizon show me your list and small funny story so while we were

in Cyprus. We had watched the Danish television show, The Killing. I don't know if you've seen The Killing. So I guess this would have been about 2009, 2010. brilliant sort of scandy noir detective show.

Takes place in Copenhagen in November. It's very dark, very rainy. And we finished it. And I looked at him and I said, Well, that has cured any desire I have of ever going to Copenhagen. And two weeks later, two weeks later, he came home and said, You're never gonna guess where there's a job opening that I can put my name in for. So I'm not even sure if I've answered that first question, but there you go. That's how we ended up in

Arielle Tucker (11:05.193)

No I I actually love that story though. I also what did you call it free fall Tuesdays? Yeah. I think s I mean, I think my husband and I have that. I didn't have a term for it before, but I love that term so much I will be using it going forward. and I think yes, you should. I the

Dina Honour (11:11.866)

Yeah, free fall Tuesdays.

Yeah.

Dina Honour (11:22.886)

I think we should hashtag the term.

Arielle Tucker (11:27.625)

Because I think that is so relatable though. when you are living and building a life abroad and the you you arrive and the job or the destination doesn't work out like you thought it would, or the kid doesn't settle like you think, all of a sudden you kind of are in like even if you have friends and you can drive and get yourself around, you already kind of know in the back of your head like this is not our forever place and we need a plan and we need to plan fast.

Dina Honour (11:41.117)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (11:56.103)

Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (11:57.324)

Because we have one life and I don't want to get stuck here.

Dina Honour (12:01.382)

And I'm a planner, right? So I'm like, not only do I need like plan A, I need sort of like plan A through F. So, you know, if this doesn't work out if this doesn't work out, what are we gonna do? And if this doesn't work out, and you know, if if if if that one doesn't work out. and then yeah, the idea was, you know, we'll we'll get to Copenhagen and we'll see, you know, we'll see how how we feel. And we fell in love.

Arielle Tucker (12:08.469)

You're speaking by love language, yes.

Dina Honour (12:30.832)

We you know, we fell in love with Copenhagen. So like two days. It was it December.

Arielle Tucker (12:33.109)

Okay, how quickly did that happen though?

R okay, can I ask what month what month did you move to Copenhagen then? No way.

Dina Honour (12:42.744)

So we l yes, it was like December December. So right before Christmas. But Christmas in Copenhagen is a is a bit magical. it's you know, there's lights and because it gets so dark so early, they, you know, there are Christmas lights everywhere and we had not yet been introduced to the Danish you know, hoog hoogha. but I think for me it was just being back in a city.

It was kind of being surrounded by things that felt more familiar. and I yeah, I remember going out, we had landed and I went out for a walk maybe two days later and just walking around and it felt like I felt like I was I I was I was home. which surprised all of us, I think. how quickly, you know, we s we settled into it. I'd not

Arielle Tucker (13:08.386)

Mm.

Arielle Tucker (13:30.807)

Did your husband also feel that very quickly or you felt it and therefore he started to feel it?

Dina Honour (13:36.827)

I think probably not as quickly as as I did, but I think again for him there was that that breath of relief that you know, we're you know, my my partner is is happy. so therefore, you know, I'm going to be, you know, it's going to make my life easier as well. Because and I talk about this a lot. It's this idea that when you have one partner that's earning money outside the home.

Because we all work, earning money outside the home, their job might change a little bit, but they're still going to an office, they're still doing a, you know, a similar job. They're at a, you know, maybe at a desk every day. so their day-to-day life isn't changing so much. But for the partner who is setting up that life around the earning partner.

Everything changes. I mean you're finding your entire, you know, you're you have to re find your entire footing every time you move. It's finding your way around new grocery shops and what they do have and what they don't have, and you know, making substitutions and schools and doctors and babysitters and it's just everything. It's you know, it's setting up the foundation for for a new life every time, you know, every time you move.

Arielle Tucker (14:28.872)

Mm.

Arielle Tucker (14:52.011)

Which I always felt that that was the harder job of the two jobs. Cause I've been both the trailing spouse and the lead spouse. So I kind of know what it's like to have both roles. And it's a lot easier to mask with, well, my job is really important and is paying for us to be here and have the visas. So I have to focus on that versus I have to figure out the doctor's appointments, the schools.

Dina Honour (14:59.804)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dina Honour (15:18.726)

E everything else.

Arielle Tucker (15:20.703)

and everything else and then do it in a different language. Like

Dina Honour (15:23.76)

Yeah. So I think I think you know, doing that when at least you like where you are.

Is is easier for sure. And I think you mentioned something something I I wanted to pick up on too, about, you know, there are kids, there's work, there's living abroad. I mean, there's so many different pieces of this puzzle. And if one of them doesn't work, it can make life, you know, really difficult. And you know, maybe two or three, you know, two out of the three work or three out of the four work, but one doesn't, and it can, you know, it can make things really difficult.

Arielle Tucker (15:57.858)

And you see that in the fallout because the divorce rate of couples who move abroad can actually be higher. And so I think you have to acknowledge that and you have to and I've seen this where this move abroad makes or breaks the couple very quickly. and if you're in any any expat circles, you've you see it. You totally see it. So it's just something to be aware of. And if you know that going into it, you can kind of set your mental you know.

Dina Honour (16:04.497)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (16:12.998)

Yeah, yeah.

Dina Honour (16:20.007)

Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (16:28.021)

Orient yourself a little bit different.

Dina Honour (16:28.282)

Yeah, and I think that we have we have learned over time as well that, you know, it it is a partnership. And I think when you go into that

It took me a long time to understand that because I was, you know, I was thinking, you're the one, you know, we're just dependents. You know, that's the little box you tick. Like we're the dependent box and you're earning the money and it's your job that allows us to be here. now I think that we both are grateful for the fact that we have this partnership that works where he would not be able to do what he does without me doing all of the foundational work.

That allows him to do that. And I think having h both of us be appreciative of the other makes a a huge difference, you know, to the success. I think it's probably the reason why we're still we're still here. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (17:21.205)

Yeah, absolutely. Can we also talk a little bit about raising your kids abroad in a mixed American-British family? So you're like your kids are so solidly third culture kids. And not only that, but you've moved multiple times. So they were really they had their school years in at least three different countries. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Dina Honour (17:36.808)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (17:45.607)

Yeah.

Yeah, so our running joke about that is that either they're going to when they're adults, they'll they'll thank us for this amazing opportunity that they've had or they will bleed us dry with with therapy bills. And you know Yeah, yeah.

Arielle Tucker (18:00.855)

I don't think it's a joke. I tell my kids the same thing. I say we're either saving for therapy or university. If you want US university you can go to that. Otherwise you have you could have therapy forever. Because I it's you yeah, like it's a lot it's a stress, right? It's a stress on the kids.

Dina Honour (18:07.622)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dina Honour (18:15.706)

It's it's something well, I mean, now my kids are so my kids are older now. So my oldest one is almost 22, and our youngest one just finished graduated, so he will be going to university in September. So he's 18. so I can I can joke about it a little bit more because I feel like I can breathe a little bit of a sigh of of relief. But sure, there were times when you just don't know how they identify, and you watch people ask them where they're from, and their little faces are like, I don't know where they're

To say? Like, where am I from? and oddly, we had kind of our oldest son always identified more with being British, even though he had never lived there. He does live there now. So a fourth country for a fifth country for him. and our youngest son, who was only six months old when we left the US, kind of always identified more with with being American.

Arielle Tucker (18:46.892)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (19:12.048)

So and I don't know how that happened. It was things that they latched on to or their friend groups. I mean, both of them went to international schools. so they were meeting, you know, they were meeting lots of American kids, they were meeting lots of British kids in the schools they were at. and we tried for a long time to make sure we were kind of instilling our own

values in them, you know, our sort of Americann-ness or our Britishness and I think that happens naturally. I think that's you know, just by by virtue of them living with us, that they're they're picking up and they're kind of marinating in in those little cultural petri dishes. But yeah, so you know, they don't know who to cheer for during a World Cup match or, you know, during the Olympics or

Really what ends up happening is they cheer for all the places, you know, that we've lived, which is also just kind of a beautiful you know, a beautiful little melting pot. And I don't know if you might have been before there was an article years ago that was about third culture kids being a triangle. I don't know if you've ever seen reference to that, but it was this idea of

you know, being in in three different places and and I said that I think about my kids being more like a wave that they kind of are able to just kind of pick up and

drop off and and move through these different cultures and move through the you know, the worlds kind of taking the best from all the places that we've lived in, getting rid of all the rest, which I think again is and they code switch. You know, when we go to the US, they are American. And we're we're in the UK, they are British. And my my younger one speaks beautiful German. they both spoke Danish, you know. So yeah, it's I think you're gonna be okay.

Arielle Tucker (20:55.714)

Mm-hmm.

Arielle Tucker (21:09.685)

Yeah, exactly. And they're you know, they're gonna need therapy anyway, so it's i

Dina Honour (21:10.706)

I think they're gonna be okay. Yeah, yeah. So but that's on them now.

Arielle Tucker (21:18.337)

Yes, yes. I I'm curious if we can switch to talking a little bit about how Americans

Romanticize moving abroad. Because I think you have been abroad for 20-ish years. So I think you and I have both witnessed this like massive shift right now in the last couple of years, where you know I think there's like over 40% of Americans are thinking about it. Not that 40% of Americans will move abroad, but just people are actively thinking. It's in mainstream conversations, this idea of moving abroad.

Dina Honour (21:36.935)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (21:44.807)

Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (21:50.944)

So can you talk us through like some of the parts that maybe people over-romanticize or the Instagram version of moving abroad?

Dina Honour (21:57.801)

Yeah, the i the Instagram version, that's such a great way of of putting it, right? The you know.

I, you know, whenever I would go back to the US or even to the UK and you talk to people and I think there's this like idea of people see the glamorous bits. They think, you know, they think about the travel and the tra or the travel opportunities. There's a real misconception, I think, about household help. Like, you know, that we're all we're all have a a staff at our are back and call and and I maybe that is true in certain areas where it's more affordable, certainly not in Northern Europe.

And you know, the reality is that most of us are cleaning our own toilets and and doing the hard day-to-day living, but without the support networks that we might have at home. and I think that that is something that people really need to consider is that, you know, it's not just picking up your life and moving it to a new place. And it's not just doing the same things that you did at home in a new place. It is, you know, immersing yourself in someone else's culture and someone else's home. And

If your ideals don't mesh with that, it can be, you know, it can be really jarring. and again, you know, doing it, you know, it's like, you know, trying to figure out the washing machine. It's like I can't. It's like, you know, Google Translate in front in front of the washing machine or or the cut of meat that you're, you know, that you're trying to buy at the supermarket. It's, you know, the mundane day-to-day stuff that you do.

Arielle Tucker (23:21.805)

Yes.

Dina Honour (23:34.823)

But with like a whole different operating system running in the background. So it's it can be really tiring, I think, too. It uses up a lot of sort of mental energy. and yeah, I think probably there have been a there's been a lot of talk about it since 2016. which is, you know, if for us in our family there was a a big shift because that was also the year of Brexit. and

Arielle Tucker (23:59.854)

Mm.

Dina Honour (24:00.217)

And you know, some political changes in the US. And so our lives, the trajectory of our lives changed because it meant that our our boys no longer had EU citizenship. so you know that was an unexpected wrench that got thrown into our plans that we had to kind of pivot and adapt to. So I would never tell any yeah, yeah.

Arielle Tucker (24:21.751)

Can I ask, are you are you German now? 'Cause you've been well, you've been there for four years. Are you guys planning on going up for German citizenship?

Dina Honour (24:27.42)

Yeah. so we were our time in Denmark never counted was we could never count it toward any kind of residency or citizenship. I think we can in Germany.

Arielle Tucker (24:35.179)

Okay.

Dina Honour (24:42.844)

But it would be that, you know, so I think after a certain amount of time, I think it's four or five years with a certain level of German, you can apply for permanent residency and then after that, citizenship. And I'm just we're never sure how we're not sure if we'll be here long enough to kind of get that process started, which is always, you know, the wrong thing to say because you always end up someplace longer than you think and then you're like, damn.

Arielle Tucker (25:00.279)

Okay.

Dina Honour (25:10.736)

Our son, I think his German is good enough that he could probably apply, but he's off to university, so so they'll just have to, you know, it's huge.

Arielle Tucker (25:17.057)

Yeah. Yeah. I mean it is a big consideration. Like you have to you have to really be thinking about your citizenship and then also as your kids become young adults, proactively thinking about what doors do they need to open and close because they're yeah, Amer they're US British, that doesn't give you right necessarily to live in the EU without having a purpose, like obviously education or or work. But you have to think about the proactively 'cause what eighteen year old is thinking about where they want to be in fifteen years.

Dina Honour (25:33.501)

Yeah.

Dina Honour (25:39.685)

Exactly.

Dina Honour (25:46.429)

This is this is a it's been a huge com piece of conversation in our house because our oldest one just graduated from university and you know, most kids his age move back home.

and they work and they save up money or yeah, and and he's just it's not a real viable option for him. I mean he could if he if he needed to. we could, you know, I think there's some maneuvering with the with the visa, but you know, it it's it's not really he doesn't have a life here. He has no friends, he you know, 'cause he didn't grow up here. so yeah, there are there are lots of considerations.

Arielle Tucker (26:17.388)

Mm-hmm.

Dina Honour (26:21.224)

you know, the whole Schengen thing. It's like my kids can only come and visit me for ninety days at a time. Which is as a mother sometimes you have these panicky moments, like, what if something happens? so yeah, lots of things you don't think about.

Arielle Tucker (26:31.233)

Yeah. And you think back to Covid, right? You guys were in Berlin during COVID time? No. You were in Copenhagen. Okay. Yeah, so I think it was

Dina Honour (26:37.518)

No, we were in Copenhagen. Yeah. And that was a huge thing because you I remember thinking, what happens if if Denmark says, go back to your home countries and your country won't let me in and my country won't let you in and do we split things. I mean it was it was yeah, it was that was a real COVID was a real wake up call. you know, yeah.

Arielle Tucker (26:48.289)

Yeah, yeah.

Arielle Tucker (26:57.881)

Mm-hmm. I think for so many people. Yeah, to really think about that proactively. okay, last question. If your two thousand eight self could see you now, what would surprise her most?

Dina Honour (27:10.65)

I think that we're still here. You know, first and foremost. but more than that, no, I think that she would be amazed and proud of of you know the the woman that she didn't think that she could be. and that the you know, the resilience and the change and that she has created this, you know, this

Arielle Tucker (27:13.037)

Mm-hmm.

Dina Honour (27:33.788)

vibrant and life where her whole family is is thriving, you know, and that is something that we built from scratch. and I think it's a huge accomplishment. so I think that she would be proud of of who she turns in who she turned into, even though she was unsure at the time. Yeah.

Arielle Tucker (27:54.044)

Dina, thank you so much for coming and joining us today. I'm Passport Towalt. I really appreciate you hearing more about your story.

Dina Honour (27:58.918)

again, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure.