31: Danna's Burnout

Hello, friends.

This is a very quick note to say that Donna and I are using a lot of foul language in this episode.

This is your warning.

Please make sure little ears aren't listening nearby, and we hope you enjoy.

We're back talking about burnout, and this time not from a distance, but right inside the belly of the beast.

Donna is going to share her story, and it's one of the most honest conversations that we've had.

We've talked a lot about poop.

So if that tells you something, burnout isn't just about being tired.

It is like a whole body.

Fuck no.

Right?

And today, Donna is going to let us into her life and spill the beans about her.

Fuck no.

Burnout.

Yes, I will.

And spoiler alert, it's not a yoga retreat fix.

It's ugly.

Crying, identity loss, and slowly learning how to live again.

This isn't a comeback story.

It's a still in it story.

But I've learned some powerful things along the way.

So.

Hello, friends, and welcome back to the so Freaking Healthy podcast.

I feel like every time I say that, I feel like we're not so freaking healthy, right?

I mean, like, I was thinking about that today on the way back.

I'm thinking like, I've got a bum hip.

I've, oh, I'm, you know, probably about 10 kilos, 20 kilos overweight.

You're going through burnout, and we're like, hell, so freaking healthy.

I feel like that's kind of like our mantra now.

It's like we're trying to be as freaking healthy as possible.

But anyway, so anyway, back to that.

Hi, friends.

Welcome back to the We're Trying to be so Freaking Healthy podcast.

I'm Megan, the resident scientist.

And I'm Donna.

I'm your weird hippie sister from another mister.

And in this episode, we're going to continue our discussion about burnout that we started our last episode with our guest, Karina Schneider.

You can definitely find the link to that episode in our show notes, as.

We did in the episode on arfid.

That is an acronym, by the way.

We did that episode in December of 2023.

So in this episode, I'll be interviewing Dana about her experiences.

And this time, of course, our topic is about burnout.

So before we get into all of the gross, nasty shit, let's rewind, let's go back.

I met Donna in early 2022, and she put a call out like, hey, bitches, I want to do a podcast with somebody who's up for this crazy ride with me and I'm like, me, please.

Me, please.

So I knew Donna for about a couple months before all the, the, the.

Things happened, before the shit hit the fan.

Yeah.

So can you just tell me from your point of view because you know you best, like, who was pre burnout Donna?

That's a very good question.

I think I was.

The one thing that comes to mind always is I was just unstoppable.

I had tenacity.

Like, you know a three year old's tenacity, like, they're like, I don't give a.

That my dog cannot drive the car.

I will.

This is going to happen.

That was basically me.

I was always busy.

I was like, there was fire up my butt at all times.

My husband laughs at me because every five minutes I had a new business idea and a logo.

Like it didn't, you know, I was giving because that's what you need to.

Start all businesses with is a logo.

A hundred percent logo.

You got nothing.

You got nothing.

You know, so I was, I was actually.

I was crazy.

I mean, like, now that I look at it, I was giving talks in large corporate offices.

I was running group programs.

I was working with my clients on one, both online and in their kitchen.

And I also still found time to do catering gigs and to be there for my family.

And I was a very present mom.

So I was a.

You were on top of it.

Yeah, I was so on top of man.

Yeah.

I mean, honestly, when I first met you, I'm like, oh, she's one of those people that, she does stuff now.

Oh, like yesterday, like when I started.

Working with you, like, oh, let's do this.

I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll get to it sometime this week.

She's like, yeah, I already called those five people you wanted me to call.

I'm just like, wow.

I'm intimidated and inspired at the same time.

I feel like that is a really great way to talk about pre burnout Donna.

Intimidating because you did so, so much, but also inspiring because you did so, so much.

You were really just everywhere.

I mean, everybody in the Zurich area knows Organalicious and, and knows Donna Levy Hoffman because you were just everywhere.

Yeah, people stopped me on the street.

Like every time I was in Zurich, people would stop me on the street and go like, you're the food lady.

Or, you know, randomly maybe know my name.

Probably not, but.

Or my business name because they couldn't read it.

But like, yeah, kind of, kind of crazy.

Yeah.

But okay, so that's all very external, you know, that was like external Facing Donna, even to your family.

Right.

I'm also curious about what was going on in your brain specifically.

Like, how was your brain working, your thought processes working during that time before the burnout?

And we're going to talk about how it is after the burnout later in the.

In the show.

So I really want to understand the juicy Donna brain goo bits going on up there.

Yeah, well, I mean, I was basically ADHD on crack.

Like, I was unstoppable.

I. I never believed that anything can stop me from reaching my goals.

And my goals were not just one at a time.

They were endless.

So I could really juggle a million thoughts, ideas, and to do lists without any problem while nowadays.

Well, we'll talk about nowadays later.

So it was more along the lines of if you want to put it into physical context, it's like having two legs and being able to run and never having the concept of not being able to run but in your brain.

Basically, my.

My external, like, demeanor of she's.

She just does not stop.

Was times 10 in my head.

It was times 10 in my head.

I was really.

I was.

I really never believed that anything could stop me from reaching any goal that I have.

Yeah.

Okay, so let's now get into it.

I blame him for everything gone.

You know what?

My husband has.

He has a little song whenever I blame him for anything.

Like if he moves something or did something he's not supposed to do, even if I don't know if he's right, if it's actually true or not, he does this song.

We're gonna totally keep this in the episode.

He goes, blame the husband, blame the husband, and he does this little thing with his arms like this.

Like, he's gonna shoot me from leaving that in.

But anyway.

Okay.

And my husband is gonna start now.

Listen.

You know, doing the same, probably.

Oh, gosh.

Thanks.

Okay, so in this.

In this first part of this episode, we're gonna talk about, you know, okay, how did.

How did this come about?

So I guess my question to you is, what happened?

Like, when did this happen?

And, like, what triggered it for you?

Like, what was the genesis?

Or where did you.

Where did you see the genesis?

Now that you're looking kind of backwards.

Yeah.

Well, I have to start by saying that that this.

Now that I've gone through it, I realized that this is definitely not my first burnout.

So we'll start with that.

But that's just a mini side note because I never knew it was a burnout, and I always bounced back and I was unstoppable again.

But I guess some of our listeners would remember the episode where I opened up and spoke about my son's experience with arfid, which is an eating disorder that occurs because of trauma and phobia, has nothing to do with body image or anything like that.

It was a very long time that we struggle with that.

Back when we recorded that episode, I thought that everything was behind me already.

Sky was back home after being in a clinic for a really long time.

I was starting to feel like I can go back to living somewhat a normal life, but unfortunately I wasn't even close to being well.

I was hopeful and I was doing everything in my power to go back to normality, but I was completely burnt out and I didn't really treat it back then, or at least not in the way that I, that was necessary.

Right.

I was trying more holistic approaches from my favorite self medication of cannabis to you know, traditional Chinese medicine to craniosacral treatments.

I even tried magic mushrooms.

And yes, we have an episode on that as well.

Not my experience, but at least interviewing our expert.

So in my head I was doing everything in my power to get better.

I was even going on like crazy ass diets.

But because I was doing everything in my power, right.

It was also, you know, I didn't give myself a break, I didn't give myself rest and that's what I needed the most at that time.

So because I was restless, trying to reach for a cure in a way for whatever the hell it was that I was suffering from, which I didn't know what was, I was basically burning myself out even more.

So so you were doing a Donna approach to your issue, which was attack it full steam ahead with 50 different things all at the same time.

And all of those things are also taking your energy and your resources when all you should have done is be like a little robot and shut down.

Yes, exactly.

On the nose.

Yeah, on the nose.

So basically by this time last year I would have most days where I couldn't get out of bed or if I did it was just to crawl on the sofa, not be able to move for the rest of the day.

I think I even shortly talk about this in the ARFID episode where I thought that the cannabis was helping me a bit more on the day to day.

When I started using it during the day, obviously that, that just gave me more energy to do more things because Donna's weird and cannabis gives her energy.

So yeah, you know, I, I, I felt exhausted, although I didn't do anything so my brain was going a million miles an hour because I didn't stop being adhd.

So of course the narrative in my head was, you're such a failure.

Get off your ass.

Start cooking a meal, clean the house, do some laundry, get your business back off the ground.

But, yeah, obviously, as you can imagine, no self love there, and it probably made things worse.

So you had this point where you were trying all of these therapies, and then you jumped to this point where you can't get out of bed.

How did that transition happen?

I honestly can't remember accurately.

It is a bit of a blur.

But what I can tell you is that I know that with every thing that I discovered that might help me, I always kind of categorized it is as like, okay, this is the last thing I'm gonna try.

Oh.

So I imagine that I just ran out of things to try.

And that was like, you know, one day.

Again, let's not forget, I also suffer from depression.

Like, it is a chronic illness.

And so when I get into the spirals, it's very easy to just be sucked down, you know, and.

And when you don't have the energy or any like that, and then you also lose hope because you don't have that one last thing that might help you.

And for me, I think it was really the mushrooms, because I. I did try psychedelic mushrooms in a very organized manner, very therapeutic manner, and I didn't feel it.

I did.

It didn't.

I was so burnt out that my brain was probably like, dude, do not let anything in.

And so that last hope that I had for this one thing, it didn't help.

And so I think that kind of put me down this route of I'm out of ideas, and I'm bouncing between one week having the energy of a Duracell bunny and another two weeks to two months of not being able to function at all.

So I think that it kind of was gradual, but in Adana way, it was like, bouncy and messy.

Yeah, because I think that when we talked with Karina Schneider in our last episode, I mean, that was one of the things where, like, how does somebody know, like, what are the symptoms?

What are the things?

And I feel like the ambiguity and individuality of everybody's situation in.

And it's not like you said in the other episode, it's not like a broken leg that happens.

And then you can see it.

It's like this continuum.

It.

It is more difficult to pinpoint something.

And I feel like that's why I was asking, because if somebody's listening to this now going, am I?

Am I not?

It's like, you know, it's like, what?

The more information you have, the more informed you are that maybe it's not exactly the same situation because nobody is Adana, nobody is a Megan.

But, you know, there can be similarities, hopefully, that people can glean from your story.

To say, wait, I'm.

You know, some of that stuff she's saying is kind of clicking with me.

I mean, look, I've had other burnouts.

I did not even realize they were burnouts, and they were not like this one.

Your body will just show it in different ways.

So it is very important what you said.

I think it's really important to understand, and I think that just to realize that if you feel like you are just not the same person and you don't have that same energy, I think that's a big sign of what the hell is going on.

What just happened that made me all of a sudden completely switch my characteristics or my identity manner?

Yeah, yeah.

Identity.

It feels like identity.

Yeah, it really does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think Karina also mentioned something along those lines.

Like, burnout.

It can be a crisis of identity as well.

Like, why?

Why am I doing this?

Who am I?

You know, and then you just, like, go into a tailspin of.

Of an identity crisis, which can also trigger a burnout.

So.

Okay, good.

I'm glad we covered that.

At some point, you're like, okay, I've tried all these things.

I. I'm in the fetal position in my bed, and I'm not getting out.

Okay, what happened from that point?

Like, where did you go from there?

So as I said, I was still, you know, Tigger from Winnie the Pooh, just bouncy.

I was still there kind of just because I didn't allow myself to not be right as soon as I found a little bit of energy.

But I've been working with my therapist for years at that point.

She knew about my struggles during the time when my son wasn't well.

She's been telling me for a couple of years by then already that I should really get myself in a burnout clinic.

And she saw those kind of waves.

At one time, I would get into her office and I'd be smiling and I'd be like, yeah, I got a client and this and that, and I'm so happy, and there's energy.

And then another time, she.

I would come in and I would be just a sobbing mess.

I couldn't even function right mentally function.

So at that Point, I kept making excuses to not go.

I would be.

I would say, like, how would my family survive without me?

They'll probably starve to death within a week.

You know, all the things.

And despite the fact that my kids have been cooking us meals from, like, age three.

But whatever.

But I was scared that I would.

That I would leave and come back to, like, a bombshell of a home with a broken husband and kids that walk around with dirty clothes and living off of Pringles and Mars bars.

That was my vision.

So I was fighting it for a while.

And then again, in that moment, I was starting to feel better.

And, of course, my nature is getting things done yesterday.

So as soon as I would have an ounce of energy, I would just think, you know, the old Donna's back.

Push myself to another point of overwhelm and exhaustion and, you know, still being convinced that I'm getting better.

But it literally then took.

And I remember it so clearly, it took one small argument with one of my kids to send me right back down to the bottom of that pit.

And at that moment, I understood that I'm not who I was before and that I don't know how to get myself out of this mess and that I needed help.

So I contacted my therapist and I told.

I asked her to sign me up because I didn't even have the energy to.

To, like, do it myself.

I didn't have the energy to call the clinic or anything like that.

So she actually dealt with everything for me.

I'm curious because, like, oh, you have to get into a wait list for a clinic, and then you're checked into this clinic for how long?

And it sounds kind of like a loony bin and what's going on?

Like, yeah, do they.

Can you come and go?

How.

How.

What.

What is all of this?

Like, so I learned a lot from your experience in the clinic, but I'm curious to know after you actually got in the clinic, because I feel like it took you several months to even get into a spot, which in itself is like this limbo, Right?

So one talk about this limbo from the time when your doctor signed you up for the clinic to when you got in.

And then once you got in the clinic, what is the thing that surprised you the most about this kind of healing in that environment?

Yeah, well, the thing was, it actually didn't take so long for me to get in.

That was actually the scary part was that when both my therapist and I explained the situation to the clinic, they actually put me on top of their list.

So things were bad.

Yeah.

But what happened was they basically called me one day and said come tomorrow.

And I was like, I can't.

I still need to cook and freeze meals for my family to not eat it and order pizza.

So I kind of pushed it another.

I think it was maybe a week and a half.

It all happened relatively quickly.

But I think from the moment I finally started talking about it and until I went in, it maybe was a bit less than two months.

But so I went, I mean like I went the second time that they called.

I reached out to all my friends to help take care of my dudes when I was, you know, leaving them alone without a mom and a wife to support them.

And I went away to what I thought would be a month long stay at a special burnout clinic.

The clinic was partly also a mental hospital.

People.

There are quite a few areas there.

People come for different reasons and are being put in specific.

What do you call it?

Like a wards?

Yeah, wards for whatever.

So yes, there are wards that are closed where patients cannot leave.

For me it was possible to leave.

There were a lot of rules, but basically I could leave.

But I was there sleeping, eating everything.

I was there 24, 7.

I was allowed after a couple of weeks.

Well, I was allowed from the beginning, but we thought it wasn't great for me to go home for a total of 23 hours once a week.

Yeah, long story short, I was there for a total of four months.

Three months living at the clinic and coming home on the weekends and then another month sleeping at home but going there almost daily.

So you know, I guess waiting over two years to take care of my severe burnout didn't help to get out of there sooner.

And I guess by the time I got there I wasn't rushing to get out.

I was enjoying the vacation with a view of Lake of Zurich and.

And although it's not really a vacation though, I mean, no, you say that but it, it wasn't a vacation.

Not at all at all.

It was an emotional.

It was emotionally draining four months.

The most emotionally draining four months I've ever had.

You are, have you therapies around the clock in a way?

Not, not around the clock but in fact when you consider sitting down with your friends, eating and talking about that stuff, going to the art room or, or sitting watching a movie or just all of the conversations, there's non stop conversations there.

So it, at the end of the day it is a very emotionally draining yet re energizing because then you're just focusing on on you.

And that's what was different for me, because I never ever in my life ever.

Only focused on me ever, ever, ever.

So that.

That I think was.

Was big.

Yeah.

And, you know, funny enough, I feel like most of the healing came from the group of friends that I've made there.

People who were in similar situations to mine who all opened up to one another.

Like you.

You basically open up very quickly in that kind of environment because you're not like, hi, how are you?

What's your name?

What do you do?

You're like, hey, what are you in for?

You know what I mean?

You just dig into each other's soul within the first paragraph of conversation together.

I am a very open and honest person, and I still had conversations there that I've never had with my best friends or even my sisters.

So that was.

That was a big one.

It's the community part of that experience, right?

Because usually, whether it's a hobby or a mental illness, when you find the tribe of people who all speak the same language and have experiences, it's so much easier to talk with them about that.

Whether it's crochet your book club or hey, I'm burnt out.

I mean, the concept is the same, and I feel like that's one of those things that we try to say each time, you know, find your tribe with whatever, you know, like, one of the biggest things for people in old age with loneliness and also mental health issues when you get older is the lack of community.

And I know I'm making a little tiny tangent here, but I feel like this is important to say because even you had your community of friends and family that you reached out to for support with your boys, but also supporting you, and you gave us all very clear instructions.

It.

What was interesting was that I never asked for help before that message.

So it was interesting that I.

That I. I know that I spoke to each and every one of you individually about being burnt out.

So I felt comfortable enough to reach out, but I never asked for help.

I never asked for help.

And I think that was also an eye opener for me because when I was at a point where I was like, help.

Just help to say to my.

To my therapist, please just sign me up.

I cannot call them myself.

You know what I mean?

Or.

Or to reach out to you guys.

I think that was also a big one for me because I was like, wow, whoa, I'm scaring myself right now.

I obviously need to do this because I'm.

I'm feeling very lost and.

And helpless.

So I need help from my surrounding.

I'm always the one jumping in and helping others.

So yeah, I think that was also one of those like, interesting, that's not like me and scary.

And here we are.

Is there anything else from the time in the clinic that you want to share?

The nice thing there was that, you know, I had loads of therapy.

So it was really one on one therapy like three times a week.

And then there was group therapy, which was really intensive in different constellations.

We also had art therapy and I was literally to be found in the art room at any given moment.

Outside of the therapies, we had physical activities.

Yoga, gym, Nordic walking, you know, all the things.

So.

And of course naturally I had to fill up my schedule.

Everyone would laugh at me that I, that I wouldn't take a break.

And I'm like, how can you lay in bed all day?

Like, how can you just sit here?

I'm here to heal.

I gotta do everything.

So I was that lunatic.

And again, that might have slowed me down also to not leave after a month, but leave after three.

But I still think that it helped me because having nothing on my agenda other than self healing was new and it was good and it forced me to do that.

And so for me, sitting in, in the room, not utilizing the help that they have there for me, felt like I was giving up.

And I think that a lot of the work actually, you know, it took me, it took me a while to even at the clinic, not immediately be.

They call me mom.

Until now, I was the mom of the clinic because I was taking care of everyone.

And this was me actively trying not to take care of anyone by myself.

And I was still labeled the mom.

Can you imagine that?

So, you know, I, I was really, I. I was trying so hard.

Every single time someone said something, I would sit there and go like, Donna, this is not your circus.

Not your monkeys, not your circus, not your monkeys.

You know, like just repeating that over and over again just to remember that I'm there for myself.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So briefly, we talked a little bit at the top of the episode about pre Donna externally, what we all see pre Donna internally, how your brain is functioning.

O.

So now we're at the point where I'd like to know you've.

You've come out the other side.

I wouldn't say you're done with your recovery yet.

I think you would agree.

But who is Donna?

Now explain how Donna is different externally and also internally after this experience.

Yeah, I mean, so as you said, I Don't know that I'm on the other side yet at all.

Or maybe I am, but I'm simply not the same person.

It's hard for me to.

To suss that out.

Funny enough, you mentioned it to me just the other day.

We were on the call and you said, like, we need to get the bubbly, energetic Donna back.

And I was like, I'd love nothing more than that, but I really don't know if that would ever happen.

So I'm sorry for disappointing you, Megan.

You know, it's.

But it is.

It is a mind.

It really is.

I. I've gone from being outgoing, extroverted, bubbly, energetic, firecracker, like, to this mellow.

Mellow more on the outside.

On the inside, there's still noise, but, you know, this mellow, easy, easily overwhelmed introvert who needs plenty of rest and not too much interaction and not too much on my schedule.

And some days I can get overwhelmed by too many messages on WhatsApp, and that would put me off WhatsApp for, like, days, you know, until I feel that I'm up for it.

And some days picking up the phone to just make one appointment and is too much.

So other days I can get stuff done like a superwoman.

And even on those days, I make sure that I don't overdo it because I don't want to be back there.

So everything is different now.

I'm adjusting my life accordingly, and I'm.

And it's unclear if it's.

If this is, like, the new me or just the, you know, recovering person.

And I know we didn't talk about talking about this, but how is the dynamic.

Has the dynamic shifted in your family pre and post burnout?

That's a.

That's a loaded question.

I think things definitely changed, but going through all of this while my boys went through puberty has just made it harder because they then become this, like, stupid, heartless, you know, compared to what they were, they're still gorgeous souls, but, like, compared to how loving and giving and understanding they were, they.

They just go through, like, you know, construction site in their brain.

I don't blame them, but it made it a lot harder for me to see, like, oh, this.

You know, they really took it to heart or things change or whatever, understanding me a little bit more.

You know what I mean?

Like, why am I asking for you to help me?

Not because I want to teach you how to do the dishes.

You can do the freaking dishes.

I. I need your help, and this is why I'm asking for it.

And there's the difference there.

You know, if I'm just going, like, I'll do it later.

And then, like, two days later, dishwasher is still, you know, there's a mess in the kitchen.

I think that there is a little bit more understanding.

I think there is a little bit more.

I think they're a little bit more cautious just because they don't want me to leave again for three months and not get mommy food.

Because, by the way, when I would come home on the weekends to visit them, I refused to cook, clean, or do anything but my own laundry.

Okay.

I was like, you.

You guys can cook for me or I'll, you know, buy something on the way.

So I.

They really.

They had me to hug them and hold them and talk to them, and that was on a daily.

If they called me up, I was there.

But they didn't have the, you know, made.

That is mom.

So did that make them.

Did that help a little bit with some independence.

Are they doing stuff on their own now, or do you still have to crack the whip?

They were.

They were doing it easily when I was gone.

And I still have to crack the whip, of course, because they're teenagers and they don't want to do that.

So it's.

It's, you know, it's this dynamic.

I think it's easier nowadays if I just go, like, guys, I really, genuinely need your help.

And I've asked, you know, I've asked you once, please do it now.

Then it's easier to kind of convince them than going, like, what I used to do is stand there crying, begging for help because I couldn't do it.

And that's what they.

That's the mom that left to the clinic.

It was this lunatic raging, like, I can't do this.

All I'm falling apart.

You know, like, what the.

Are you.

You know?

So it is definitely, you know, I feel like that experience brought us closer for sure.

And they're still teenagers, so it just is what it is.

I know.

It's just.

So why does it take an event for people to just help each other out?

You know what I mean?

Like, why does it have to be that way to, you know, it?

Why.

Why does the woman have to break down, go away for the male counterparts to understand that.

Oh, no, Mom's seriously up right now.

Yep.

Right?

Oh, I had calls.

I'm sorry.

If you want a truth bomb, I had a call at the clinic from one of my boys.

I will not mention names, who said to me in those words, why can't we have a normal mom?

Oh, and I'm sitting there and I'm going through like heart wrenching therapy sessions and feeling guilty for leaving them and everything.

And then you get that.

And I was bawling and I was like, what exactly is a normal mom?

And he goes, well, you know, all of our friends, they don't, ex moms don't expect them to do chores and they just give them whatever the they want and they're there.

And I was like, well, sorry, dude, then you don't have a normal mom.

You know, I was like, I don't, I, I don't know what else to say, but it is very rough.

It's very rough to go through that while your kids don't recognize themselves.

So we both had identity crises.

We all felt like we're not there for one another, although we were.

And I think that's why it got harder because really they do go through an identity crisis at that age and, and they don't know themselves or their bodies or their emotions or their thoughts.

Like everything changes.

And then all of a sudden their loony mom is gone for three months.

I mean, four practically.

I mean, I wasn't there much on the fourth month.

So, yeah, I don't blame them.

I'm starting to understand it a little bit more.

My incredible husband, who literally, I can't even complain about him ever because he did everything before I left for the clinic.

Like he's always done everything around here anyways and just took on more when I, when I left.

He also had to deal with me being gone for so long and being a different person than he married before and after.

You know, and if our relationship wasn't so solid and stable, I, I'd be scared to think of what other couples go through and how that might actually break the relationship that would have otherwise been solid.

I think it's, it's just a big, it's an earthquake for the entire family.

So my kids didn't just see a mom serving them a hot meal every day.

They saw a mom serving them a hot meal and then rushing to UBS to give a talk and then rushing back to do this podcast and then rushing back to the, to the call and then another meal is being meanwhile prepared and like energizer running, right?

And, and to, to literally just not being a human anymore.

Like not being able to function in the slightest must have been a quite a big, big shake for them.

So I, my heart goes out to them and I'm, and I'm Proud of myself for actually prioritizing myself in that time because I know they needed me and I was trying to be there for them when they called and reached out for help.

But I put boundaries and that was something that I never knew how to do.

And I'm still continuing to do that today, so.

And that again, that's another lesson that you're teaching them.

In a way, maybe they don't appreciate it now, but sometime at some point they're going to appreciate that mom had to take care of herself.

If you were sitting with someone in a cafe, they're like, coming to you.

Donna, I heard you have burnout.

What are three things that you would tell them?

Yeah.

Okay, so I would definitely say, first of all, don't beat yourself up if you're lacking energy that you used to have.

That noise is not going to help.

The second is catch it on time and don't fight it like I did.

It only makes things worse.

And the third is rest is productive, period.

Yeah, I think, yeah, I agree with everything you said.

I think it's hard to practice that because.

No, right.

It's like, oh, if I just do this, like you said at the beginning, if I just do this, this is going to help.

I think that it is very hard to do.

But if you manage to remind yourself how important it is and that the world does not implode.

If not, if something isn't happening in that moment, then you will be more productive later on after you rested.

Okay, so obviously this story is not done because we don't know where you are.

It's like a kid, like we thought.

So there's no, like little wrap up, neat, tidy little package bow.

This is what I learned and this is how I am now.

Like, it's not nice and neat and tidy.

So how do we wrap this all up for our wonderful listeners who have stayed with us through your story?

Okay, well, I mean, I just wanted to share my story.

And if it, if this episode cracked something open in you, don't ignore it.

Good.

I feel like that is super advice.

And obviously we're not experts.

This is Donna's story time.

But we do know a few experts with burnout.

And so if you haven't yet checked out our episode, we've name dropped her a couple times.

Karina Schneider.

She has an episode with us on our show.

She has just launched her own show called Back After Burnout where she talks mostly about how to return from work, but she also is talking with other experts about burnout in general.

So if you want some more valuable insights?

Not just story time, but really like how to navigate this shit.

Make sure you check her out.

Otherwise.

Thanks, Donna, for sharing.

And as always, it was.

It's always a pleasure to talk to you, Donna.

Same lovely.

Bye, everyone, listeners.

Yep, see you later.

Let's try that exit again.

Yeah, do it.

Okay, everybody, we'll see you next time.

Bye, everyone.