E35: Anna - Two births, breech pregnancy, unplanned cesarean birth, VBAC

[00:00:00] Christine: Today we're talking to Anna, a Swiss mom of two daughters who has navigated just about every twist the birth world can throw at you. After a miscarriage and a pregnancy with a baby in breech [00:00:10] position, Anna went against medical advice to pursue a vaginal birth, ultimately ending in a cesarean after a long and hard-fought labor.

[00:00:17] Her second pregnancy brought its own [00:00:20] challenges, including managing a toddler and supporting a partner recovering from depression, but ended in something she had worked hard for, a successful VBAC. [00:00:30] Anna talks openly about the hard parts of early parenthood, the difference a healed partnership makes, and what it felt like to finally hold her baby on her chest and know they had done [00:00:40] it.

[00:00:40] Julia: Hi, Anna. Welcome to Swiss Birth Stories. We're so happy to have you here. to start us off, could you introduce yourself and let us know a little bit about [00:00:50] you and your family?

[00:00:52] Anna: Yes, of course. Hi, and thank you for having me. I'm very excited to have this conversation with both of you. Um, my name is Anna.

[00:00:59] [00:01:00] I'm Swiss. I've been born and raised here in Switzerland in the Zurich surroundings. I had a fair bit of international travels in my 20s. I worked and [00:01:10] studied abroad, but then met my partner here in Zurich, and we settled down here and have been building our lives here, first as a couple of two, and now as a [00:01:20] family of four with our two daughters.

[00:01:22] The older one is three and a half, and the younger is just one year now.

[00:01:26] Christine: It's funny that it brought you back in the end, full [00:01:30] circle back to, back to Zurich. Yeah, I guess I, I had done my share of traveling and I felt for building a family it was nice to being around my [00:01:40] family, and that has really been paying off and is really feeling good to have, my daughters have a very close connection with their cousins, with their grandparents.

[00:01:48] Anna: So it was really the thought [00:01:50] of, you know, when I have kids, I would like them to be close to my family as well.

[00:01:54] Christine: Yeah. That's priceless. W- what was the, the beginnings? How did you decide [00:02:00] to start a family, or was it even a conscious decision?

[00:02:04] Anna: Yeah, we both always knew that we wanted to have kids.

[00:02:08] it was just a matter of, you [00:02:10] know, we were still both building our careers as well and wanted to get married first. So when that all had happened, or the career was partially built, the marriage had happened , uh, [00:02:20] we decided that w- it was a good moment to start trying. And yeah, we were just lucky that it happened very quickly

[00:02:27] I got pregnant first, like two, [00:02:30] three months, after we got married, around Christmas in 2021 that must have been. Yeah. And then I actually had a miscarriage that first time, just around New Year's, so it was [00:02:40] a very weird, uh, setting to be, you know, celebrating the beginning of the new year and kind of the ending of this tiny life that we had hoped for.

[00:02:49] so after [00:02:50] that we took a bit of time to recover, especially myself physically and mentally. And then when we tried again, I got pregnant again, luckily quite quickly, and that time [00:03:00] around it, uh, it stayed and, it grew healthily.

[00:03:04] Julia: Oh, I'm really sorry to hear about that, that first loss. so devastating, especially as a first [00:03:10] pregnancy, and around the holidays. That just, yeah, very confusing, as you said. could you then tell us about your, [00:03:20] pregnancy that resulted in your living, your first living child,

[00:03:23] Anna: Yeah, so in the very beginning I was quite nervous, I must say, because of that first miscarriage. Mm. Absolutely. I kind of didn't have [00:03:30] this full trust that my body was able to do this, and I also had some bleeding very early on, and I was just so glad when we saw that first heartbeat., And then it [00:03:40] kind of developed, um, naturally.

[00:03:42] I suffered from a lot of nausea, which was, um, yeah, it was, it was rough. I wouldn't say I enjoyed that first part of the pregnancy, and [00:03:50] I think it got better, like, after the summer. I had this really beautiful phase of a few weeks where I was not yet, you know, very big with a huge belly, and also [00:04:00] the first few troublesome months had passed, and then it was really a, a phase of enjoying actually the, the pregnancy.

[00:04:08] Julia: that experience of, [00:04:10] I think you said it really well, of feeling like you didn't know if your body could do this is so hard when you're trying to, at the same time, connect with this [00:04:20] new baby that's growing inside of you. And then, but then having, at the same time, these really strong pregnancy symptoms of nausea can create a really [00:04:30] wide range of confusing, emotions, and I'm happy to hear that you then had sort of that blissful second trimester tiger blood or whatever it's called, where you just feel, [00:04:40] you feel good. during this time, what kind of... Uh, were you doing any kind of birth preparations or preparations for the new transition to a [00:04:50] family life at this time?

[00:04:52] Anna: Yeah, I did quite a lot of pregnancy yoga. That just really helped me to gra- ground myself and also to kind of experience the [00:05:00] changes in my body.

[00:05:01] Um, and we also did the usual birth preparation course at the time, and I still remember in that course they talked about breech position, [00:05:10] and it was so abstract to me, and it was like, "Ah, that's never gonna happen," you know? So unlikely, and later on it turned out that my baby was breech. But I still remember how that was being discussed, and [00:05:20] it just felt so, yeah, something that you hear about, but, you know, will never concern you in any way.

[00:05:26] so yeah, we did that course, and then in [00:05:30] September, when I was, like, seven months pregnant, I think, I took a small holiday on my own in the mountains, and I did a lot of hiking, and just being in the nature also felt so good. [00:05:40] And while walking, I listened to, um, a birth podcast from a doula, so it was really kind of connecting on all levels with, uh, with the pregnancy.

[00:05:49] And that [00:05:50] was also when I first heard about even what doulas are and what they do, and that there is this option to have that person accompanying you. And because of our [00:06:00] circumstances, like, I have to mention that my partner was suffering from severe depression, um, and at that time it had already been, like, two years, so it was unlikely he would recover very fast.[00:06:10]

[00:06:10] And when I heard about this option of having a doula, that just made so much sense to me, to have someone there who's not him who, whom I can rely upon in case he wouldn't be [00:06:20] good or, you know, just having someone there who accompanies us through all of this. So we discussed this option together as well as, as part of the preparation, and then decided that [00:06:30] this would be a good support for us to have, and luckily found a really amazing doula who was with us for, um, all the rest of the pregnancy, and then also the birth in the [00:06:40] end.

[00:06:40] So that was, for me, a really key step or, yeah, a really key decision, that we decided to have this doula support.

[00:06:48] Christine: That's amazing. We're obviously [00:06:50] big fans of Doula. I'm a little biased. Um, how did you find her, and how did you decide on her? Was it a feeling or, or [00:07:00] like an immediate connection or, or what kind of made you choose her?

[00:07:04] Anna: Yeah, I think I researched. There was some doulas mentioned. Like, at the time we still planned to have the birth at [00:07:10] Clinic in Park, and they mentioned some doulas, and then we got to one through there, and she recommended someone else because of English, so it was kind of lucky, uh, that we got to her. [00:07:20] And we just had a first conversation with her.

[00:07:22] She came to our home, and it was really a matter of feeling the connection. It was less, like, um, objective criteria that I could [00:07:30] mention. Obviously, English was important because my partner's, uh, Portuguese and we speak English together, so that was a must-have. But the rest was really just feeling at ease and kind of

[00:07:39] I really [00:07:40] tried to put myself into, okay, I'm giving birth. Am I okay to have this person next to me? And so yeah, that all felt right, and she also ... [00:07:50] She was very soft in her opinions, I would say, or she even didn't mention opinions at all. She was much more like, "Look, these are the resources. You can listen to that, read that."

[00:07:59] She was [00:08:00] much more just providing information rather than advising us in any way, and that was really, really what we were looking for.

[00:08:08] Christine: Yeah. That's so important. Like you [00:08:10] say, this person's gonna be with you in a very intimate time, and you have to, primarily you just have to feel comfortable with them. You mentioned [00:08:20] Clinic in Park and then switched to Triemli. How did that happen?

[00:08:25] Anna: Yeah, so in the end it was a breech position and stayed a breech position. [00:08:30] Like, the baby was always head up, and at Clinic in Park they were very clear that if it's a breech position they have to do a planned C-section, and [00:08:40] that just didn't feel right for me.

[00:08:42] and so I started looking into alternatives where we could, uh, try to have the baby naturally through vaginal birth. And then we found [00:08:50] that Triemli offers this option, so after a lot of, yeah, back and forth thinking what would be the best option, we decided, um, to try at Triemli.

[00:08:59] And [00:09:00] we also ... Then we had to do an MRI there to check if it's, like, physically possible to have this baby in breech position. We also had some talks with the doctors there, [00:09:10] and once everything was, like, medically approved, let's say, we decided that that would be our path to go, kind of against the opinion of [00:09:20] many people, I would say.

[00:09:21] Like, I had a gynecologist at the time who was really opposed to it and was quite clear about that as well, and also, [00:09:30] um, in my family there was people who were just not ... Like, didn't feel that that was a safe path to go. So it was not an easy decision for me to take, but it just ... I felt that [00:09:40] for me and the baby it was the right way to at least give it a try.

[00:09:44] Christine: that's really hard when you're hearing from all, surrounding people or enough [00:09:50] people to, that maybe you shouldn't, that can really kind of- planned some insecurities. So that's really impressive that especially with the first, that you felt [00:10:00] strongly and went your own path.

[00:10:03] Anna: Yeah, it was really listening also to these birth stories that, you know, it, it, it can work, you know?

[00:10:08] There's people who, for [00:10:10] whom it worked and, you know, if it doesn't work, there's safe options, safe alternatives during the birth process. So that really gave me the confidence much less than, you know, statistics or [00:10:20] whatever. Just hearing the actual experience of people who went through it and how it went was really, yeah, it was very important for me.

[00:10:27] Julia: Well, that's really great for us to hear. that's [00:10:30] exactly what our hope is, that people can hear these possibilities. and I love that. So how are you feeling then late in pregnancy? This is a lot to have to, [00:10:40] um, a lot of hoops to go through.

[00:10:41] You have an MRI, you have a hospital switch, you have, a new doula on board. give us an insight then into, into how you're feeling, um, [00:10:50] as you're going and getting late into pregnancy

[00:10:55] Anna: It's a whole mix of things, I guess, 'cause then we were still trying to incentivize the [00:11:00] baby to turn, and there was always still this hope that, you know, one day she would be head down, and it would just all be normal.

[00:11:07] Um, so we did ... I did a lot of [00:11:10] TCM, um, Chinese medicine, with, like, moxa treatments and we had ... You know, we tried to have a bell ringing, like, to, to make her turn, and a, a [00:11:20] flashlight that would incentivize her to go around, like, make the baby curious to go head down. So we tried all kinds of things, um, to still make her turn.

[00:11:27] And at the same time, I was trying to accept the fact [00:11:30] that, you know, this is the position that she wants to be in. Um, so it, it was a whole mix of emotions. And yeah, there, there was a lot of decision-making as well 'cause there's [00:11:40] also the option to turn the baby from the outside, like, to have a doctor kind of try to turn her inside the belly.

[00:11:47] I kind of felt that this was not something I wanted [00:11:50] to try, 'cause for me, in my head, it was like, if she's this position and she stays, it, it has a reason. Like, somehow, for w- whichever reason that we don't know, she's in that position, and if [00:12:00] that's what it is, it's what it is. We have to work with that.

[00:12:03] So it was a lot of decision-making, and I was glad. Like, I sto- I think I stopped working one month prior to due date, [00:12:10] and it was good for me to have that time to really process emotions, do actual, like, you know, uh, check hospitals, go for all these [00:12:20] checks, and listen to stuff, read about stuff. So it was good for me to have that time to really, yeah, process all these things.

[00:12:26] And then in the end, I would say I was at peace with how [00:12:30] things were, You know, it was good that I was prepared for all of it. Like, at Triemli, they told us in the preparation that there's gonna be much more people in the room than if you have a head-down baby, [00:12:40] just because of, well, things can go wrong in different ways if, if it's a breech position.

[00:12:45] so I, I kind of was able to prepare myself for many different scenarios. Also, the option of having a [00:12:50] C-section was on the table very early on, so it helped me to kind of know that this was somewhere on the horizon potentially, to think through it and [00:13:00] think like, "Okay, if this happens, how can I make sure it's still an okay experience for me?

[00:13:05] How do I need to prepare for this?" So yeah, it was a lot of mental work, I would [00:13:10] say, um, leading up to the, to the actual birth in the end.

[00:13:14] Julia: When did you know things were starting? Well, I never did, actually, [00:13:20] 'cause she, um, she was overdue, and then when we... Uh, we had to do checks at Triemli regularly after the due date. And at the last check, they kind of told us, [00:13:30] "Look, we have to schedule a C-section unless, you want to try, um, a cocktail, a castor oil cocktail."

[00:13:38] Anna: so they were checking if [00:13:40] this was fine with breach, and you know, we were discussing this option. And in the end, that was how we did it. Like, they asked us, uh, to come in, I think around midnight, and then [00:13:50] I drank this cocktail. Um, and yeah, that's how we h- that's how the whole birth then started. Like, we, we came in with the doula and drank [00:14:00] this thing and then went a bit to sleep, 'cause they told us, "Look, if you can still rest, that's the best to do."

[00:14:05] Um, so we slept. I still remember in that tiny room, the three of us. Uh, [00:14:10] but I managed to fall asleep, and I think two, three, four hours later, I woke up with huge, um, contractions already. and I was like, "This is [00:14:20] super regular. It's super intense. It cannot be." And we called the midwife, and she was also like, "No, you know, this is still gonna take a while.

[00:14:26] Just rest." And I was really like, "No, this is like... I [00:14:30] barely have a break, honestly." And they came to measure, and in the end it was already, like, every three minutes. Like, it was really intense. It was really from zero to 100. I woke up, and I was in it. It was really [00:14:40] uh, um, like a very steep start. And then we transferred, uh, to the birthing room, and from there on it was, yeah, that's, that's [00:14:50] the rhythm that my body chose after this, uh, cocktail.

[00:14:53] It was really like a kickstart into birth.

[00:14:58] And yeah, later [00:15:00] I, I, I- it's, it's really a blur then in my mind. I mean, it was hours that we did this, and I don't remember how I went through that. Like, I remember I had this spiky ball from [00:15:10] my doula that was super helpful. I always held on to this spiky ball that kind of creates a little bit of pain in your hands to give you something else to focus on.

[00:15:19] [00:15:20] Um, and I also remember, like, in my birth preferences, I had written, like, "I want a homey atmosphere. I want it to be cozy," you know? And we went into this birth room, and it was this [00:15:30] huge hospital room, uh, very sterile. It was still the old Triemli, um, uh, just a massive room of emptiness, and it was so not like my birth [00:15:40] preferences.

[00:15:40] But I had my small playlist, and at some point it was actually snowing outside, so somehow this homey feeling actually came up in that, you know, [00:15:50] hospital room

[00:15:53] Julia: Wow. Ox-, as like oxytocin that your body's producing is a hell of a drug. Uh, you could turn [00:16:00] that space into something so homey and really, really, really intense.

[00:16:06] when they said, yeah, a lot of people were gonna be in the room, [00:16:10] like, did you feel like you knew who was there, or you had an understanding of what was happening around you, or were you just in yourself?

[00:16:18] Anna: Yeah, that, that's one of the things [00:16:20] that's really funny. Like, I don't know who was in that room apart from the doula and my partner. Like, I, I know there was some midwives at some point, and they introduced themselves, but for me it was my partner and the [00:16:30] doula. That's what I remember. And I know from my partner that there was not, in that stage, like, there was always one midwife around, but, and the doctor coming by every [00:16:40] few hours, I guess.

[00:16:41] But it was really not at that point where there was a lot of people. I think that would really have been for the very last phase then, uh, for the pushing stage. But for [00:16:50] all these hours we were pretty much on our own. And for me, I really, I didn't take notice of anyone apart from the two people that were there with me.

[00:16:59] And for me, that was [00:17:00] the, the perfect setting. Like, I could really just focus on them, and for much of it I was very much just in my own world anyways. So yeah, it's, it's kind of funny how you prepare and you [00:17:10] imagine this, and you think it's so important, for instance, to not have so many people. In the end, honestly, I wouldn't have cared if there was 10 people in the room probably, 'cause I was really just focused on these two [00:17:20] people that, yeah, supported me through the process.

[00:17:24] Julia: you had a really good team. I'm curious about your partner's experience of this. Um, how, [00:17:30] how was he doing at this time?

[00:17:33] Anna: Luckily it was really, uh, good these days. Nice. And I think the adrenaline that he probably also had helped. Like, [00:17:40] in that moment it was really not, like, his mental health was out of the picture in a way.

[00:17:44] It was really, uh, gone for, for these days, which was, uh, which I was very grateful for. [00:17:50] And it was physically intense for him and for the doula 'cause, uh, they kept on, um, kind of pressing my hips together. Like, that was the thing that somehow really helped me with the pain. [00:18:00] But obviously for the person doing that, like, you physically need to press the hips strongly for it to, to have an effect.

[00:18:06] And so, yeah, it was physically tough for [00:18:10] both of them as well, like, going through this process. I mean, as, as the birthing person, you kind of don't feel the hours, but as the person just pressing hips for hours and hours, I guess you feel, [00:18:20] uh, the time passing. So yeah, I, it was good also in that sense to have two people there being able to do that, and it was really only them who could do it the right way.

[00:18:28] I don't know, in birth, I think [00:18:30] you're very particular about what helps, and it was the two of them who knew what to do, and no one else. Like, anyone else, it didn't work.

[00:18:37] Christine: Yeah. It's, you can be very particular and it's hard [00:18:40] to see ahead of time what that's gonna be, but you, you figure out something out that works and you just wanna stick with it.

[00:18:47] So it's good, good that they were two of [00:18:50] them what did the rest of it look like then? The end must have gotten quite interesting

[00:18:55] Anna: Yeah. So I think aro- in the afternoon [00:19:00] at some point, I ... Like, we had a code word for painkillers, 'cause my, um, preference would have been to do the birth without any medication.

[00:19:08] So we decided if I really want [00:19:10] something, there's a code word so they know if I say that, it's really I want something. It's not just, "Oh, help me, I need something." It's really like, no, it's the moment to give me painkillers, uh, or pain relief. And, [00:19:20] uh, they offered me the option to have this happy button. So it's like a button where you can self-administer medicine that helps you, like pain relief.

[00:19:29] And, [00:19:30] um, so I got that, I guess at, at some point in the afternoon. It's really hard to remember times. But yeah, at some point I had this happy button, and then we worked with that. [00:19:40] And I dilated very, very slowly, and the problem was that the baby was always completely up. Like, she never came down, and so the dilation was super slow.

[00:19:49] And at some [00:19:50] point towards the evening, I was fully dilated, and she was still just up in her corner. And we tried some, like sha- shaking techniques, [00:20:00] different positions. I moved, I bathed. Like, we tried all kinds of things, but she was just in her corner. Like, she was always healthy and everything was always fine, but yeah, it just didn't [00:20:10] move.

[00:20:11] And then the, the doctor said that there's the option of trying an epidural, that sometimes with the relaxation that brings, baby comes [00:20:20] down, or to go for a C-section. And yeah, at that point it was, like, I think 6:00 in the evening, so it had been many hours of very, very intense [00:20:30] contractions and kind of the feeling of, yeah, things are not moving.

[00:20:33] And at that time they also had a good window in the surgery, like they would have had a good time slot without stress. So in [00:20:40] the end we decided that, you know, we've tried, we've been through what we could go through. Baby doesn't come down. So yeah, it felt like the right decision to do, to go for the [00:20:50] C-section.

[00:20:50] And it was a really peaceful transition. Like, because they had this open window, th- there was no stress or anything. It was really like, "Okay, we're gonna give you [00:21:00] something to stop contractions." My partner could go get ready. I was prepared for the surgery, and I was just so relieved that there was no more contractions, 'cause yeah, it was just [00:21:10] like, "Okay, I've tried and it's good now.

[00:21:12] We, we stop. It's fine." Like, everyone is prepared, I think, as much as they can be. Um, and then I remember there was this women team [00:21:20] in the surgery which was so beautiful as well. Like, there was really just women around me, and it was ... I don't know, it was so peaceful and relaxed. They explained what's gonna happen.

[00:21:29] [00:21:30] Um, they, at every step they said, "Okay, now we're gonna cut. Now we're gonna press." And then in the end, yeah, she, they pressed her out. I heard her scream first, and then they kind of give her around [00:21:40] the, the curtain. And, um, since we had known that C-section might be, um, an option, uh, we had prepared a song for her.

[00:21:49] Like, we had sang [00:21:50] it during pregnancy. Um, and so when she was given to us, we sang, like it was Yellow by Coldplay. So we sang this song to her, and she was kind of on top of us, and we were there in the surgery [00:22:00] room singing. And it was, honestly, in the end it was, uh, it, it was really a good experience. I was very, very happy with how things went

[00:22:09] Christine: That is [00:22:10] so beautiful. I love that image, and I love that you prepared something ahead of time that, that would've worked both ways, no matter how she came [00:22:20] out, to have this kind of anchor and this something that's familiar to her and familiar to you. Was your doula allowed in the, in the operating room? [00:22:30] No, she was there with us until the operating room, and then afterwards she was still with us for a few hours as well.

[00:22:37] Anna: But that part was just, uh, the two of us. [00:22:40] Okay. And really cool that there was an all-woman team. Yeah. Yeah, that made a big difference. It was really... It felt [00:22:50] right.

[00:22:51] Julia: I think the whole story until now, you've been so self-empowered, you've been making your choices, you've not felt... [00:23:00] Uh, it just sounds really lovely, this whole experience, and I'm, and I'm grateful to hear it. And Yellow's one of my favorite songs

[00:23:09] just [00:23:10] imagining that moment is so beautiful. Um, so you're in this, you're in your operating room, baby's out, she's close to you. walk us through [00:23:20] what happens next.

[00:23:22] Anna: Uh, she's... Like, they were stitching me up, and she stayed with me for quite a while.

[00:23:27] We tried a bit of breastfeeding, um, [00:23:30] and then we were transferred back to the birth room, where we rested, and she was just on top of me and my partner. Uh, they were weighing her at some point, and [00:23:40] measuring her, but only quite a bit later. Um, and I got food, like I couldn't eat throughout the whole birthing process, and then I remember there, uh, they gave me [00:23:50] Hörnli mit Köttbullar, so like, um, yeah, pasta with some, uh, meat sauce, and it was just the best meal of my life.

[00:23:57] And, uh,

[00:23:58] Julia: then- Yes, I can imagine that. [00:24:00] Carbs with- So good ... protein, oh, it must have been great. Perfect.

[00:24:04] Anna: Yeah, it was fantastic, just the, the perfect dish for that moment. Um, and then later on [00:24:10] they prepared everything and we were transferred to the room. Um, it was a very, very small room, like we got our own room, but it was not really set up for the partner to stay, so he had a, he [00:24:20] had kind of this military bed in the corner somewhere.

[00:24:24] Um, but you know, it was, it, it felt cozy. It was just the, the three of us in that tiny room. It felt [00:24:30] really, really good to be there.

[00:24:32] Julia: And how long was your doula with you after baby was born? Uh, she left [00:24:40] quite quickly after. Like, she still was with us and the baby, but then after, I don't remember, like maybe half an hour, she actually went home 'cause for her also it had been, like almost 24 [00:24:50] hours so. Yeah. Re- really, really long day. Yeah.

[00:24:53] Anna: So, uh, she went home to rest as well, and then she came for some visits, uh, o- once we were back [00:25:00] home for the postpartum period. And it was really good also to talk through the birth experience with her- Mm ... and to kind of process it through, yeah, going, just going through it again with [00:25:10] her and, uh, yeah. And she, she knew some details that I was completely not aware of anymore, 'cause obviously I have very different perceptions in that moment.

[00:25:19] Julia: how was, [00:25:20] how was postpartum? It was a rather rough experience, I would say. Like, breastfeeding was difficult in the [00:25:30] sense that I always had sore nipples, and, like, w- you know, r- then you start trying to find solutions, and one expert, and then breastfeeding [00:25:40] consultations, and, um, osteopathy, and, uh, like, a lot of things.

[00:25:44] Anna: It felt like a lot, just the breastfeeding itself. Um, and then also, you [00:25:50] know, with the ad- adrenaline wearing away, also my partner went again into more depressive states, so it was a, a lot to deal with. And I [00:26:00] think it was really when I decided not to breastfeed anymore, like to pump and give her the milk through the bottle, where things got better.

[00:26:07] Like, until then, it really felt like a, a [00:26:10] big struggle of, um, yeah, having this baby survive, but, you know, having the pain. Having also the recovery from C-section for me was very different than the recovery [00:26:20] from a vaginal birth. It was... There's just a lot of pain, like, walking around in the beginning and carrying the baby and stuff.

[00:26:26] So physically and mentally, that was, uh, the first [00:26:30] two months, I would say, were, were rather tough until we... I- we got more security with the baby. Also, the wound healed a bit, and the breastfeeding decision was done. Um, [00:26:40] those were, like, major milestones. Then it started, you know, feeling more safe and, uh, yeah, more stable again.

[00:26:47] Christine: I, don't know if this is true, but just listening, I, I feel [00:26:50] like there might be a lot of pressure on you given that your partner already is struggling, for you to kind of hold it all together, you know?

[00:26:57] Anna: Yeah. It was really like, you know, [00:27:00] all pe- uh, like everyone tells you, "Oh, you have to rest.

[00:27:03] You should, you know, not do anything," but you still have the baby and you have the household, and yeah, you have the partner who's not doing well. You have the [00:27:10] breastfeeding to figure out. So y- you're kind of like stressed about resting, you know? Like you know that you should rest, but you don't seem to get the rest you need, and you know it, but there's [00:27:20] just no way around.

[00:27:21] So it was, I think for me, created additional pressure, this whole, oh, postpartum should be all peaceful and restful, and it was just not our reality. And kind of having [00:27:30] that image that this is how it should be kind of made, made it more difficult in, in that moment.

[00:27:35] Christine: Yeah. That's excellent advice considering if, if [00:27:40] you have a great support system and, you know, people who are around you who are healthy and able and otherwise, yeah, who, who's gonna do it?

[00:27:49] If you're, [00:27:50] if you're all resting and recovering, then who's left?

[00:27:55] Anna: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, someone has to, has to do the stuff. And in the end, [00:28:00] it was really the, the second postpartum that kind of healed that experience, I would say. It was really so different with the second kid. Um, like, my partner [00:28:10] was healthy, and we just knew a lot of things that we didn't know the first time around.

[00:28:14] And I guess generally you're more prepared, like, yeah, there's just things you know that you don't have [00:28:20] to go through anymore or learn anymore. So I, I think really the second postpartum kind of healed my first postpartum, I would say.

[00:28:29] Julia: So then [00:28:30] let's launch into then your second pregnancy. after such a challenging experience with your first, that decision to then add to the family is a big decision, because it's [00:28:40] always on the table, do we just, do we, do we have one, you know?

[00:28:44] so, what's the age difference between your, your children?

[00:28:49] Anna: [00:28:50] It's two and a half years.

[00:28:51] Julia: Two and a half years. Yeah. So they're still, like, yeah, under one when the decision... Well, one when the decision was being made. how did you guys know it was [00:29:00] the right time to have your second child, and also how did the early pregnancy go with them?

[00:29:09] Anna: Yeah, I mean, for [00:29:10] a... we, we always had said that we wanted more than one kid, so in the general concept that had always been, um, what we were looking for. But then for a long time it just [00:29:20] felt like so out of, like, our reality and so not what we could handle. But, um, yeah, then at some point, when she was, I think [00:29:30] she was, like, one and a half at the time, yeah, around one and a half, it was a bit of a calmer period.

[00:29:36] It was summer holidays, and we were like, "We [00:29:40] want the second kid and we don't want a big gap." Um, I also didn't want to get much older before having another kid, 'cause I just felt like physically it gets more tiring. So we were [00:29:50] like, "Okay, let's, let's just try. You anyways never know. It can take up to a year or more.

[00:29:54] You never know, it cannot even work at all. Let's just start trying." And yeah, I mean, we were very lucky [00:30:00] again and, like, literally, like, two weeks after having that conversation I was pregnant again. So it was just... We, we, we were kind of not expecting it and in a way not really prepared for it. Like, we were like, "Oh, [00:30:10] really?

[00:30:10] So it's happening now? Okay." So, uh, yeah, it happened again very fast. And, um, it was really kind of a decision [00:30:20] maybe against or, or, like, despite the reality we were having at the time. we were projecting ourselves in the future into, like, five years from now, where do we want to be? How do we want [00:30:30] our family to look?

[00:30:30] And we were like, "Okay, for us, it's really both the picture of two kids. It's not one kid, it's two kids." So maybe it's, it's rough now, but we really know that this is [00:30:40] our goal, So we were like, "Okay, we, we, we will try it."... Again, like, I was much more relaxed. I was not so afraid anymore in the beginning because I kind of, yeah, that time around I had [00:30:50] the confidence that my body could do this and that, you know, a pregnancy could work out for me. So, uh, emotionally it was much easier. But obviously the nausea with a, [00:31:00] an older kid already around is just a different beast to handle.

[00:31:03] It was really ... Like, she didn't, you couldn't see anything yet, so she didn't really understand what was going on. It's just like, Mommy [00:31:10] is sick all the time and doesn't want to play anymore. So, uh, that was, that was more difficult, uh, to handle. and yeah, also at the time still the, the mental [00:31:20] health of my partner was still not good, so juggling my own sickness, the older kid, and, um, his attempts at getting the right therapy and the right medication [00:31:30] was, um, a rough beginning.

[00:31:31] And then it was, again, actually in the second trimester he had found a treatment that worked, so he got much, much better. Um, I felt [00:31:40] physically better, and I had this kind of very, very close bond with my older kid. Like, somehow the bond between us got much more [00:31:50] intimate through knowing that there's another kid arriving, and she started talking to the belly.

[00:31:54] And we just had a really, really intimate few months there, like, when I was around seven, [00:32:00] eight months pregnant. It was really, kind of my honeymoon in the pregnancy, I would say.

[00:32:06] Christine: I'm curious did you decide to use a doula again, and did you decide to go with the [00:32:10] same doula? How did that work out?

[00:32:13] Anna: Yeah, absolutely. Like, she was a fixed part of my, uh, of my birth setting by [00:32:20] then. And, um, so we asked her very on whether... very early on whether she would support us again. Um, and she was really available right up to my due date, [00:32:30] and then we had to get a back-up doula for after the due date.

[00:32:33] So it was not the optimal setting, but we were like, "Okay, we take what we can get. At least we can do the preparation and the lead-up to the [00:32:40] birth, and then if the baby comes late, you know, we, we have the back-up." And, uh, yeah, so she accompanied us again through the, the end of the pregnancy, and we did a bit of [00:32:50] different preparations 'cause it's less about, you know, the medical knowledge or the birth proces- process per se.

[00:32:55] It was more like, um, yeah, ta- talking more about postpartum as [00:33:00] well with the older kid, how can you prepare the older sibling also for the arrival, um, of the sister. .

[00:33:06] Christine: I was gonna ask how you decided on the hospital.

[00:33:09] Anna: [00:33:10] Yeah. Uh, it was, uh, clear that that time around I would want Klinikum Park, which had been my first choice for the first birth as well. And I had a new gynecologist, a wonderful [00:33:20] woman who was much more in line with my beliefs as well than the first one I had, and she also, uh, is associated with Klinikum Park, so she could be there for the birth.

[00:33:28] So that was kind of, [00:33:30] um, yeah, the straightforward decision for me. And yeah, I remember when I had this check where they can see that the head is down, and she was head down. It was like a massive [00:33:40] celebration. I was like, "Yes, it can happen in my body. The baby's down, with the head down." So, uh, when that was confirmed, it was kind of clear that we would go to [00:33:50] Klinikum Park.

[00:33:52] Julia: And, and the support for a planned VBAC, uh, how did you find that uh, with both your [00:34:00] gynecologist and with the staff at Klinikum Park?

[00:34:04] Anna: Actually, I had more, like I had prepared for more, for them being more stressed or, [00:34:10] or more concerned about this. Like my gynecologist was completely relaxed and she said, "Look, it's kind of almost as, uh, any other birth.

[00:34:19] We, we have to be a bit [00:34:20] more careful." But she looked at the scar and she said it's very well healed. It, uh, looks very solid. Also enough time had passed for it to heal fully. Um, and that [00:34:30] clinic in Park, kind of the same. Like ev- everyone in my memory seemed super relaxed about it. So I listened to a few birth stories and, but overall it kind of wasn't the [00:34:40] biggest or not such a big topic as I had it imagined to be

[00:34:45] Julia: so then tell us about your second child's birth. [00:34:50] How did that go?

[00:34:52] Anna: Yeah, so, uh, the birth, the due date came and went, and she didn't decide to come out, so that was for me ... Yeah, that was a [00:35:00] frustrating moment 'cause I had really hoped to go through the birth with the doula. And obviously I was also a bit afraid of having to do another induction or natural induction or, yeah, [00:35:10] some kind of procedure to start the birth.

[00:35:12] So yeah, passing that due date was a bit of a ... Yeah, I, I was super angry on that day. I was really like, "What the hell are you doing? Come [00:35:20] out. Come on." So yeah, but then somehow once it was passed, it was anyways clear that, yeah, it was just not gonna be that way that I had imagined. And then I [00:35:30] remember it was, like, 1st of May, it was a day off, so we went to, um, have a picnic at the lake, and it was a very warm day, so we went swimming.

[00:35:38] And it was kind of a day where I [00:35:40] stopped thinking about birth, 'cause I had been very much anticipating things to happen, and it just hadn't. And then you kind of get very stuck in those thoughts, and every small sign you're like, "Oh, maybe this is it." Then that is [00:35:50] not it, then, you know. So anyways, that day I really managed to relax and kind of stop thinking a bit, uh, a little bit about it.

[00:35:57] And then that night at, like, [00:36:00] 1:00 or 2:00 AM, I woke up, um, with some contractions. And initially I was kind of be like, "Yeah, this is another one of these, you know, fake starts and nothing's gonna happen." But I stayed up, and [00:36:10] then it intensified towards the morning. Um, and I woke up my partner and told him, like, "I think now it's actually really starting."

[00:36:19] [00:36:20] And so we called my mom, who would come to take care of the, the older daughter. And, uh, she was still sleeping, so I remember we decided not to wake up, her up, just [00:36:30] let, you know, let my mom take care of her. And I remember, like, going to say goodbye to her, and it was this kind of super weird, very emotional moment, 'cause it was like, this is the last time [00:36:40] I will see her as my only daughter.

[00:36:42] So it was really ... It was good that I, you know, had these moments with her and really kind of consciously, consciously say, said goodbye to this [00:36:50] time of her being our only kid. Um, and yeah, then we took our bags and went to clinic in park and, uh, checked in for the second [00:37:00] birth.

[00:37:01] Julia: and then did the backup doula come? ,

[00:37:03] Anna: Actually, we decided that we would just, you know, see how it goes, start as the two of us- Mm-hmm ... and then ask her to come [00:37:10] when it got more ser- or decide if we ask her to come when it got more serious. , And it started quite slowly, which for me, like I never had this, this stage [00:37:20] of the labor, I never had it, um, had experienced it in such a way, so I had no idea whether my body would again like, you know, rocket start.

[00:37:27] Um, but that time it went quite slowly, [00:37:30] so we were there for a few hours, but contractions were regular but slow and quite g- big gaps in between still. So we went for a walk there, went back to [00:37:40] the, to the room, and then they told us, "Look, you, you can also go back home a little bit. It seems to be taking some time."

[00:37:46] Um, so we ... It was around [00:37:50] lunchtime, so we decided to, to have a lunch. We went, um, to buy a burger and then, you know, stopped in a beautiful spot to look at the lake and eat our burgers, and then I was like, "Oh, okay, now it's more serious. [00:38:00] We have to go." Uh, and so we went back to Klinik im Park, and, um, then it really started, uh, picking up.

[00:38:08] And somehow we were [00:38:10] just in the flow, and my partner, because of the first, uh, birth experience, kind of knew all the maneuvers and all the things to do to help me, so it just felt very [00:38:20] natural to just be the two of us.

[00:38:21] Christine: That's really, really nice that that could be a conscious decision that you know there's somebody else there if you need more support. But yeah, given his [00:38:30] experience with the first birth, I mean, he's a pro already. Um, and that turned out to be just what you needed. Yeah, yeah. We were making jokes afterwards that he could, uh, build a second career as a [00:38:40] doula as well if he want to.

[00:38:42] There we go.

[00:38:43] And so then it progressed, it got stronger, and where did it go from there? [00:38:50]

[00:38:50] Anna: Yeah, so at, at some point we went into the birthing room, which this time was this homey, cozy, like it's a beautiful atmosphere. It's this low light and it was really very [00:39:00] nice. And I, um, decided to go into the water 'cause that had helped a bit, uh, in the first birth.

[00:39:06] But there it was just, it totally didn't feel right. Like, it was hot and it was like, "I'm [00:39:10] gonna faint. This is too much." It was really not the right thing. So, um, yeah, we just continued with different positions and again, the, the hip pressing and, um, I also [00:39:20] had some, like, meditation playlist that I had listened to before that had really s- yeah, it helped me to be in my zone and to, to focus.

[00:39:29] [00:39:30] Um, yeah, eventually, again, the, the head was always up and, um, the pain was very intense and dilation was again quite slow. Um, [00:39:40] so first we tried with, um, just a normal painkiller, but that really didn't do anything at all. And then they said, "Look, since the pain is already so intense, but there's just [00:39:50] not really, like, physical progress, um, that we could try for an, an epidural."

[00:39:55] And yeah, then we, we decided that we, we would try that. and then, you know, [00:40:00] it's this like in, in your mind you're like, "Okay, we take the decision," and then it's there. But that's not, obviously not how it works in the hospital that you have to wait for the anesthetist to come, then they ask you to fill forms, then you're [00:40:10] like, "I don't care what I have to sign.

[00:40:11] Just do what you gotta do." So it felt like a long process from deciding that I wanted the epidural to it actually happening. Um, [00:40:20] and then it was difficult to get in the right position to get it in because of the contractions obviously. And the first time around it didn't really work. Like, [00:40:30] one leg was kind of half numb, but, um, the pain wasn't really gone.

[00:40:34] so I, I told them that I, I don't think it, it's, it's in the right position, so they called the [00:40:40] anesthetist back and he kind of couldn't believe that it was not proper. So they ... I remember they put me, like, cold packs to the leg and asked, "Is this cold? Is this cold?" And it's like, "Yeah, hell, it's [00:40:50] cold.

[00:40:50] Come on." And so it took a really long time to convince them that it was not proper and, uh, then he tried again and it worked perfectly. it [00:41:00] allowed me to sleep for a few hours 'cause by that time it was ev- late evening, so it had been like, I don't know, like 16 hours or something.

[00:41:07] So it really allowed me and also my partner [00:41:10] to relax a little bit. Um, and I, I even fell asleep and then at some point the midwife came in and said, "Oh, I'm gonna check you again. Let's see." And she was like, "Oh, [00:41:20] it's open. Baby's down. You can start pressing." And I was like, "What? I just woke up. What's happening?"

[00:41:26] So yeah, it was a bit of a, "Okay, so what do I do now exactly?" Because, [00:41:30] like, that part of, of the birth I hadn't experienced before, so I was really a bit like, "Like, what do you mean? What am I supposed to do here?" And because you don't have the feeling because of the epidural, [00:41:40] I was like, "Okay, sure. I'll start Uh, and they also called in the gynecologist at that time. And, um, they turned down the epidural, so I [00:41:50] started feeling more of the contractions again. Um, and yeah, the pressing stage was quite intense because obviously the pain came back, and the baby was [00:42:00] always hitting, the pubic bone. So it was, like, in, out, in, out.

[00:42:03] And yeah, at some point the gynecologist said, "Look, probably it's good to try with a, with a [00:42:10] vacuum," because, yeah, I was also physically just exhausted. Um, so we went for that. And then again, in my head, it was like, "Oh, okay, so it's vacuum now. I can, you know, I'm [00:42:20] done, basically." And then they-

[00:42:21] Julia: No, it's a, it's a com- e- everyone's working together with a vacuum.

[00:42:27] Anna: Yeah, and like I couldn't... I, I was really not prepared [00:42:30] for the pain to put the vacuum because, I mean, I don't know what exactly she did, but for me it felt like she just tore everything apart and went in. And that was really [00:42:40] something I, I mean, I really didn't prepare for that option. I, I had no clue what was happening.

[00:42:43] It was so painful, and that was really for me the one moment where I completely lost it. Like, I screamed and I told her, "I, I [00:42:50] cannot do anything anymore." Like, I, I, I don't know. I'm done. Um, and there she was really, the gynecologist was really wonderful. Like, she really grounded me and told me, like, "Look, you're gonna breathe.

[00:42:59] You're gonna [00:43:00] manage. It's almost there. It's the last stretch." And then I, yeah, really had just to do two pushes still, and baby was out and on my chest. [00:43:10] Um, and like, yeah, with the, with the umbilical cord still there. And I remember that moment was just, I was just like, "I did it. She's out." Uh, [00:43:20] VBAC completed.

[00:43:21] Uh, that was a magical moment.

[00:43:25] Christine: That is a huge accomplishment. And [00:43:30] that's really, both things, the, the epidural and the vacuum, you mentioned something really important, which is having the right kind of information. You know, you, [00:43:40] You might have made the same decisions, but if you have this idea of an epidural being a little poke in the back and then you are pain-free, that's not exactly reality, right?

[00:43:48] You're probably... You have to wait for the [00:43:50] anesthesiologist, and then maybe it does work the first time, maybe not. But... And the vacuum, too. And the way they phrase it usually is like, "Oh, we're just gonna help baby a little bit," or something very simple. And [00:44:00] you're like, "No." That's not all, you know, that's not all it is.

[00:44:04] Anna: . Yeah. I, I'm not sure if it would have been good to know about all of this. Like, like this, I just, you know, [00:44:10] went through it and it was the way it was, and it worked in the end, so.

[00:44:13] Christine: That's true. There is such a thing as too much information, right?

[00:44:15] Anna: Yeah.

[00:44:16] Yeah.

[00:44:17] Julia: I think, I think something that's, really important is [00:44:20] that something so monumental to happen to a body, you're not gonna escape it without pain and discomfort. It's just... And it's so scary, and it's, it's [00:44:30] so... You, when you look at someone who's pregnant the first time and you know that because in our culture we don't share these stories so intimately, they're, it's not so commonplace.

[00:44:39] And [00:44:40] often when we share birth stories, they're really short and, and we feel like, "Oh, I don't wanna scare this," you know, I don't know, "23-year-old young woman who's [00:44:50] sitting in front of me." But I don't think it really does a service to women. You don't ha- Some women wanna know everything, like every possible detail,

[00:44:58] And some women wanna know nothing. I think [00:45:00] that the most important thing is that we all recognize that there's no way your body can make something so perfect, so wonderful, so pure [00:45:10] without sacrifice. And the s- and it's going to be painful, and it's going to be uncomfortable, even if you have the smoothest, most [00:45:20] easiest, most, you know, the most complete epidural, or if your body experiences pain-free birth, there's still moments of discomfort.

[00:45:26] Mm-hmm. And this is logical in such an [00:45:30] absolutely monumental transition in life.

[00:45:32] Anna: Yeah, absolutely

[00:45:34] Julia: And it doesn't make it fair or nice to talk about or easy. It's not easy. It's so hard. [00:45:40] Um, and I'm just really, grateful that we have this podcast where we can share these stories, and I think, listening to yours so far [00:45:50] has just been so wonderful.

[00:45:52] , So c- take us back to your room. You have your second daughter on your chest after all of this. I can [00:46:00] imagine that the oxytocin was so thick you had to, like, swim through it. talk to us about it.

[00:46:05] Anna: Yeah, I felt like the hero of the world, and everything was so beautiful. I was [00:46:10] just so much in love and i- with peace, uh, at peace with everything, like with her there on my chest.

[00:46:15] And, and they had so- to do some stitching, and I guess the placenta came [00:46:20] out at some point, but I honestly, I, I don't remember. I just remember her being on my chest and this feeling of, yeah, accomplishment. Like, that, you know... And, and kind of, I was a, [00:46:30] a bit incredulous as well, like, "Wow, this really happened, and she's really here without C-section."

[00:46:34] And, you know, it's, uh, yeah, c- just starting to realize the whole thing and process, [00:46:40] um, everything that had happened. Um- And yeah, I, I, I remember at some point my partner was like, "But we're here for hours. Like, could we move to a room maybe?" And I was like, "Oh, [00:46:50] really? Oh, I think it's great here," you know? And so yeah, they, um, they weighed her and everything, and prepared our room, and then transferred us, um, [00:47:00] to, to our hospital room there.

[00:47:01] And yeah, it was a- an amazing room. Um, it was so comfy. Like, the whole stay there afterwards was really, [00:47:10] yeah, felt, felt just perfect for what we needed. And luckily we had our older daughter with my parents for these days, so my husband could really stay, uh, I think for [00:47:20] two, three, n- two nights, and then the last night my best friend came to stay with me, and he went home to be with our older daughter to kind of prepare her and, you know, give [00:47:30] her a bit of daddy time before the younger sister would come home.

[00:47:33] And yeah, that was just really an amazing setup. Uh, for me, it really mattered not to be there all alone with [00:47:40] the baby, and so having my friend there was really, uh, really beautiful. And then, uh, also my older daughter came to visit at some point, and that was really funny [00:47:50] 'cause we, we both had, uh, read or heard that, um, it's good to introduce her when the baby's not on top of me to not feel like, you know, Mommy is completely taken over by the baby.[00:48:00]

[00:48:00] So, uh, I was in the hospital bed, and Kyla, the younger one, was in her small crib. And I remember Yara, the older daughter, walking in, and I was like, "Oh, hey, how are [00:48:10] you?" And she's like, "Where's Kyla? Where's Kyla?" Like, she was totally not interested in me. She was like, "Where is the sister now? I, I don't care about you.

[00:48:15] I want to see the sister." Like, "I know you. Sister is the focus here."

[00:48:19] Julia: Where's my [00:48:20] best friend? Where's my new best friend? What did you do with her? I love it. You can, like, try and make this, you know, listen to all the books and do the, and do the advice, but that [00:48:30] little person, your toddler coming in the room, she's who she is.

[00:48:32] She knows what she wants. I love that. That's so gorgeous.

[00:48:37] Anna: Yeah, that was brilliant. And then, yeah, she went [00:48:40] to caress her head and, you know, pushed her around i- in this small crib around the room, and the Kyla actually fell asleep, so she, she felt super proud that she made baby sleep. [00:48:50] And then when she was awake, tried to feed her some snacks, and we were like, "You know, not quite yet.

[00:48:54] She'll get there, but it's a bit early for that." So yeah, it was a, a very beautiful, [00:49:00] um, introduction of the, the two siblings as well.

[00:49:05] Julia: That's really sweet.

[00:49:07] Christine: How was the transition home?

[00:49:09] Anna: [00:49:10] I kind of wanted to stay at Klinik im Park, to be honest. It was so beautiful. Like, you're just taken care of. You know, you can see the toddler once in a while, but not all the time. , Especially also with the experience after the [00:49:20] first pregnancy, I was a bit, um, apprehensive of the whole thing.

[00:49:23] But, , it really went well in the end. Like, it was just such a different experience. We were [00:49:30] all obviously in a chaos trying to, yeah, create the stability in this family of four now. But, um, we kind of kept the [00:49:40] schedule of the, the older one with the kita and stuff, so we decided for her it's best to just continue her normal routine.

[00:49:46] And then she had off days with us, of course. Um, and we [00:49:50] had also organized some, like, postpartum meal service. Like, there's a wonderful woman who's experienced in postpartum food that brought kind of food packages, and it was [00:50:00] just heavenly. Like, it was exactly the right food for me. There was also something for the toddler.

[00:50:05] It was really ... That helped a lot. Um, and also [00:50:10] we were much more careful with visits. We were like, "Okay, it's really first the four of us. We have to get used to each other. We need time. I want to recover." So we really were much more, like, [00:50:20] protecting ourselves, I would say. And so it was really, um ... I remember it as a very peaceful time there coming home.

[00:50:28] Julia: You had mentioned that the [00:50:30] postpartum was a healing experience for you, the second time around. Explain how, how you experienced that healing [00:50:40] time

[00:50:40] Anna: Yeah, so the breastfeeding itself was difficult again. , It turned out it just, I just have a lot of milk coming out at once, and so the, the [00:50:50] baby ... And I guess that was also the problem with the first one, the baby just starts, like, stopping the milk 'cause it's, like, too much, and then it kind of bites on the nipple all the time.

[00:50:58] But kind [00:51:00] of finding that out helped, 'cause it was like, okay, it's not that baby's doing anything wrong. It's not like I'm doing anything wrong. It's just kind of my physical, well, how I am and, you know. [00:51:10] So, um, kind of learning about that and knowing from the first time that also breast- um, also bottles are perfectly fine, um, it really helped to, [00:51:20] um, process that a bit more easily.

[00:51:23] 'Cause yeah, I, I, I think it's difficult to acknowledge that it's just not working the way one thought it would be working, [00:51:30] um, the breastfeeding. But that time around I was more, um, at peace with that decision, and it was also clear for me that pumping, I wouldn't do that anymore. Like, I was really kind of [00:51:40] traumatized from, you know, pumping seven times a day and washing everything.

[00:51:43] And so I was like, "No, I'm not gonna do that anymore." So if it's bottle, it's bottle. Um, and then I had a really, really nice [00:51:50] midwife lactation consultant who said, "Look, it's not all or nothing. You can maybe breastfeed once a day to still keep a little bit that bond and, you know, maybe it works for you.

[00:51:59] It's [00:52:00] something to try." And so in the end, um, that was a good solution for us. Like, I breastfed in the morning and in the evening, and the rest it was the bottle. And for us, that was in the [00:52:10] end the, the right solution. But again, it's also, you know, there's not just black and white, and finding this mid-ground that was okay for us was really, really very [00:52:20] valuable.

[00:52:20] Christine: that's really good to hear and for others to hear because you do feel like, "I have to breastfeed and I have to breastfeed exclusively or else it's formula all the time." Like, no, [00:52:30] there, there can be and that can be a good solution.

[00:52:34] Julia: how was your husband doing in your postpartum with your second [00:52:40] baby?

[00:52:40] Anna: luckily before the birth already he had, um, stabilized and had found a treatment that really worked for him, so he was, was out of the depression. And was really, it was just [00:52:50] so different to really have someone else be there for the care and support, and not feel like, um, I was carrying the whole load.

[00:52:58] So it was really [00:53:00] very healing as well for us as a couple, I think. Like, for me to be really able to be the postpartum mother who's just recovering, and you know, focusing on her physical [00:53:10] struggles, and taking care of the baby. And he spent a lot of time with the toddler, uh, during those weeks and months, so I think it also really created a new bond for the two of them, [00:53:20] 'cause it was kind of like they are a team and me and baby are a team.

[00:53:23] So it, um, yeah, it was really a very different experience, and it was, um, very [00:53:30] healing to feel that I could, could really rely on him and get his support in, in that phase.

[00:53:36] Julia: I have one more question about the healing.

[00:53:38] Um, you mentioned about [00:53:40] healing from a cesarean birth was very different for you than a vaginal birth. how was the healing process for you this time around?

[00:53:49] Anna: It felt [00:53:50] really fast, again, I guess because I had the healing experience from the C-section. Like, yeah, in the beginning, um, it was painful because of the tears [00:54:00] and, like, going to the bathroom and these things were painful. The way I remember, after a few days I was quite fine, at least from, you know, the actual injuries or, like, real [00:54:10] pain was, was gone.

[00:54:11] Um, and yeah, that, that helped a lot to... Like, I, I felt at ease with my body a bit [00:54:20] faster than with the C-section as well, because there you always have this scar in your belly that is just kind of like in the middle of you. There's this big thing that whatever movement you do, it [00:54:30] hurts you. So with, with that, uh, with the small injuries I had from the vaginal birth, it, yeah, it just felt much more easy to, to heal and, uh, feel at ease [00:54:40] again.

[00:54:40] Julia: I love that. That's that phase of feeling at ease in your body. That's, that's a really interesting thing to think about. - It is time for us to get to our [00:54:50] last question, if that's okay with you.

[00:54:52] . In these whole experiences of becoming a mother, getting into your family, what is something that sticks out in your [00:55:00] mind as your most brilliant moment?

[00:55:04] Anna: It was really the moment when, uh, Kyla, the second daughter, was on my breast with the umbilical [00:55:10] cord, 'cause it was, like, an a- an accomplishment in so many senses.

[00:55:14] Like, it was... We are this family of four now, so it felt full. It was kind of, [00:55:20] "Okay, we, you know, we have these two beautiful kids now." It was that the vaginal birth was successful, and it was, you know, she came out of there actually, just that, that part. [00:55:30] Um, and also the fact that my partner at that time was recovered and was, um, yeah, his mental health was stable again.

[00:55:37] Like, in that moment, like, all of that kind of [00:55:40] came together, and it just, yeah, it felt perfect in that moment. And also, we were really glad that we w- we didn't have to sing the song, 'cause Kyla's song was [00:55:50] Your Song from Elton John, and we totally sucked at singing it, so we were so glad we didn't have to sing it in front of the whole hospital staff.

[00:55:58] Julia: Yeah, that's a tricky, a [00:56:00] tricky range to have to get in a hospital room right after having your baby. But I love that. Oh, thank you, Anna. You've put such a wonderful smile on my face, and we have [00:56:10] so much oxytocin for ourselves to take us through the rest of the day. It's been such a joy talking to you.

[00:56:16] Anna: Thank you. It's been really nice talking to you. Thanks for doing this [00:56:20] podcast.