Jessica: Matrescence, 1 Birth Centre and 1 Home Birth in Switzerland

[00:00:00] Julia: So the last statistics on birth location in Switzerland came out in [00:00:05] 2024, and it showed that 98% of babies are born in [00:00:10] hospital. So that means that 2% are born outside of hospital settings, like at [00:00:15] home or in a birth center. And in this episode, Dr. Jessica Lane [00:00:20] Carmeli explains what it's like being a part of that 2%.

[00:00:24] [00:00:25] And I think that this is an incredible conversation for anyone who's considering [00:00:30] birth or reflecting upon birth, regardless of the location, because of the [00:00:35] incredible deep dives into topics of motherhood and breastfeeding, [00:00:40] transitions, birth preparation, safety that we go through in this episode. [00:00:45] Um, it's just a really, really great listen, and I hope you enjoy it.

[00:00:49] So let's dive [00:00:50] in.

[00:00:51] Christine: Hello, Jessica. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:00:54] Jessica: [00:00:55] Hi. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:56] Christine: We would love to start out just by hearing about you, [00:01:00] great i'm, yeah, Jessica Lane Carmeli. , I, , got here [00:01:05] through, , meeting my partner,

[00:01:06] Jessica: , at a academic conference, and I was living in [00:01:10] London at the time.

[00:01:10] I'm, I'm originally from the United States. And,, I wasn't really [00:01:15] planning on moving to Switzerland or getting married or any of that stuff, but [00:01:20] life happens and, uh, that was the course. , We were originally living in, Lausanne, and now we [00:01:25] live in Fribourg. I'm a mother of, two kids.

[00:01:28] My oldest, my [00:01:30] daughter, is, , six and a half, and my son is three and a half, and I'm [00:01:35] currently, , pregnant. I am, um Ooh, the third one is always you [00:01:40] forget, huh? The, I'm 30 weeks pregnant.

[00:01:43] It's the first pregnancy [00:01:45] in summer, so it's, um, really hot right now. But yeah, we're, we're [00:01:50] surviving.

[00:01:50] Julia: What a summer to be having your first summer pregnancy as well. This has been an [00:01:55] unprecedentedly hot summer.

[00:01:56] I'm really curious about how you experienced [00:02:00] pregnancy, in your first, but you're also currently experiencing pregnancy as well.

[00:02:04] Jessica: Yeah.

[00:02:04] [00:02:05] It helps when you're actively in it, because we tend to forget all the, especially the bad stuff. You tend to [00:02:10] be like, "Oh yeah, the heartburn wasn't so bad," or the, you know, "The sleeplessness wasn't so bad." And then you [00:02:15] experience it again, you're like, "Oh, did this happen?" Yes, of course it happened. You just forgot about it and

[00:02:19] Um, [00:02:20] so yeah, my first pregnancy, it, um, it hit me really hard. We [00:02:25] actually went to the United States for a conference. My background is in perinatal epidemiology, [00:02:30] and so I went to, a maternal health, conference to give a presentation, and I was seven weeks pregnant. [00:02:35] Uh, well, I was probably six at the time then.

[00:02:38] Like, two days before I gave my [00:02:40] talk, I started feeling really tired, and then I, I threw up, and [00:02:45] then the throwing up didn't stop. And and so I [00:02:50] had planned to go visit my parents in another state, in Colorado, and I went, [00:02:55] and I was throwing up probably 20 to 30 times a [00:03:00] day. So, when I got back to the UK and Switzerland, I was diagnosed with [00:03:05] hyperemesis.

[00:03:05] And, I didn't even know about that. I thought I just had, like, normal, [00:03:10] vomiting nausea. And so, um, but it was an interesting experience, 'cause I got [00:03:15] stuck in the US for about, until I was about 13 weeks. [00:03:20] So I was there, I was supposed to come right back after a week, and then I just, I couldn't fly back because I was [00:03:25] just so sick.

[00:03:26] Um, no one wants to do, like, a international flight when [00:03:30] they're vomiting. Um, so my first trimester was very interesting. Uh, [00:03:35] like a, a wa- awakening to what pregnancy can really do to the body. Also [00:03:40] just, like, a realization of needing to slow down and rest and, that- [00:03:45] At that time, it wasn't really compatible with my traveling [00:03:50] and working and giving conferences, talks, and, you know, it just, it really required me to slow [00:03:55] down a, a lot.

[00:03:56] Christine: I was gonna say, how did that talk go? Did you still do it? 'Cause- I did ... I [00:04:00] feel like that's everybody's l- like worst nightmare when you, when you have a talk. Like, "Oh, I'm gonna be so nervous, I'm gonna throw up." Like, [00:04:05] no, it will never happen to you. It might happen. It-

[00:04:08] Jessica: I did it. I did it. Yeah. [00:04:10] It was amazing. I, I, I somehow did it, and, uh, I think my nerves were so [00:04:15] strong that I just like pushed through.

[00:04:17] Christine: Wow.

[00:04:18] Jessica: Um, but yeah, it was, [00:04:20] it was not, it was not a pleasant experience. I don't recommend it for anyone. And then my [00:04:25] second, because I knew that that happened with my first, I told my doctor. I was now in [00:04:30] Switzerland, and I had, um, OBGYN, and I, I said, "You know, I experience severe [00:04:35] nausea and, and vomiting."

[00:04:36] And she said, "Oh, just try some ginger." And she's like, "Try some tea." And I just [00:04:40] laughed. I remember just like laughing, being like, "Are you kidding me? I said, "I need something. I need [00:04:45] medication.

[00:04:45] Like I cannot survive a toddler and work with [00:04:50] like this anymore." And so she gave me some medication. I took, um, Cariban, I think, [00:04:55] and it was so helpful. It was ... I, I didn't even throw up. Um, [00:05:00] I mean, maybe like one, one or two times, but I was able to function. Although it did make me [00:05:05] very tired. And, and I am not someone to take medication normally.

[00:05:08] Like, I'm a kind of tough it [00:05:10] out person. And, um, so it was very interesting, like at five weeks pregnant I was like, [00:05:15] "Give me whatever it is to get rid of this," because it was just so miserable. , For my third now, I, I [00:05:20] did the same thing. , But luckily, , it all went away by the first, uh, well, middle [00:05:25] of second trimester, so And then, yeah, my, all my second trimesters have been [00:05:30] amazing.

[00:05:30] I think most women kind of experience that transition where you're like death into life. And [00:05:35] you're like, "Oh, wow, I feel so good." And I was exercising [00:05:40] and had energy and, yeah, it was, it was all, all three have [00:05:45] been that way, and eating again, and that, that just felt really good. Um, but I had [00:05:50] different care systems with all three.

[00:05:52] So my first, I was living in London and Switzerland, and [00:05:55] so, uh, my first pregnancy, I was getting prenatal care through the National [00:06:00] Health Service in London. And, , they have a midwifery-led service, [00:06:05] so it was, it was interesting, but it's all at the hospital, so it's midwifery-based hospital care. Then when [00:06:10] I was in Switzerland, I chose to have birth, my birth at a birth center. And so I would have, [00:06:15] like, this, um, hospital-based care in London and then, like, birth house care here in [00:06:20] Switzerland, um, which was very-- It, the contrast was very interesting.

[00:06:23] And then for my second, I chose [00:06:25] a home birth, and so I had a home birth midwife that would come here, and that's just, [00:06:30] like, that's like luxury service, right? You just have a midwife come here, and you get to be home and, [00:06:35] um, get all your checks done and, and the [00:06:40] same thing for the third pregnancy. Um, although I do have an OBGYN, so I do go, um, and get, uh, the [00:06:45] scans and s- and certain things done there.

[00:06:47] And then through the third [00:06:50] trimester, That's when I think we get, like, this natural shift into really the preparation stage [00:06:55] of, um, you know, what is-- what do I want to feel and experience in [00:07:00] birth? What do I need to do? , With the first, you, you're kind of naive even, even as much as you may, [00:07:05] um, study.

[00:07:06] , And for me, I, I, I had, , a 10-year history in [00:07:10] maternal health, as a perinatal epidemiologist, but I only knew that framework through, [00:07:15] mm, risk and disease and what could go wrong. And, so [00:07:20] when I started to prepare for birth, I realized how, , public health, perinatal [00:07:25] epidemiology, um, like a very, um, [00:07:30] medicalized view didn't prepare me for, for anything for physiological birth.

[00:07:34] And I knew I [00:07:35] wanted a physiological birth just because I was like-- I just... I mean, I think certain studies suggest that, like, [00:07:40] up to 80% of women want, like, a very least intervention birth as possible. [00:07:45] So I think it's very common. And I was kind of afraid [00:07:50] of the intervention cascade and, you know, I started to get a bit more into, like, INA [00:07:55] May and all that world and, uh, I was like, "Oh, you know, how do I [00:08:00] support, um, physi-physiology?"

[00:08:03] And so that was a [00:08:05] re-education process for me from what I knew from my research, from my, [00:08:10] um, history in maternal health, and it was very, very deep. I remember reading [00:08:15] daily, and it was so nice with the first pregnancy. It's just, like, be in the bath and, like, reading INA May, you know, [00:08:20] and just, like, tranquil.

[00:08:21] Like, that never happened again, you know, after you have [00:08:25] children. It was a really nice preparation. And I chose, the birth house [00:08:30] in, uh, where I was, was just, like, a one-room birth house. It was not, like, like, [00:08:35] a multi-room center. So at the time, we lived in a really small apartment because I [00:08:40] considered a home birth, and we could hear, like, our neighbors talking.

[00:08:44] And I was like, [00:08:45] "I, I cannot, like, be screaming, I mean, they're gonna..." Uh, so I didn't feel comfortable enough with a home [00:08:50] birth. And for-- And also for the first birth, I thought that the birth house was a [00:08:55] good fit 'cause it was also literally a five-minute walk to the hospital. So I thought, "If something goes wrong, I'm [00:09:00] right there."

[00:09:01] Julia: So you, I'm very curious about this experience you [00:09:05] had with, um, more medicalized approach on the [00:09:10] NHS, and then coming into Switzerland.

[00:09:11] And of course, um, midwives are also medical professionals in Switzerland too, so , [00:09:15] I don't want people , to have, a misunderstanding about midwifery care in Switzerland. But we are [00:09:20] talking about entering a hospital system, an NHS hospital, which is like a big machine, bright lights, [00:09:25] very, you know, um, people can really see it in their heads.

[00:09:28] And then going in to see a [00:09:30] midwife in a birth house, you know, all those little machines, they're tucked away in cabinets, and there's, and it's [00:09:35] very home-like.

[00:09:35] Christine: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:36] Julia: How, how, you mentioned that there was a big, um, contrast [00:09:40] between those experiences. I l- I'm curious if you have any insights into that, [00:09:45] or if you wanted to share something more about that, 'cause I'm also curious about it.

[00:09:49] Jessica: Yeah, [00:09:50] yeah. It, it was an interesting contrast, and I think the one thing about, [00:09:55] especially like in London with the NHS, they're so busy. And , I [00:10:00] worked across the street in the same university. It was at a university hospital, and I had my badge on. And [00:10:05] so they kind of treated me like, "She knows what she's doing."

[00:10:08] And so they didn't really, [00:10:10] I noticed they didn't really push for a lot of things. And like, if I said, um, [00:10:15] like, there were certain tests where I l- I, I declined, or I said, "I'm not ready for that at this [00:10:20] stage," like the gestational diabetes with the, the drinking of the stuff. I was still, like, experiencing strong, [00:10:25] um, that hyperemesis, and I said, "I just can't do it right now.

[00:10:28] I'm, I'm happy to do the o- other [00:10:30] tests, um, but I, I just, it ma- makes, it will make me sick." I've always [00:10:35] been a very strong advocate for myself, and so they accepted that. And I think they accepted that also because [00:10:40] of maybe it had to do with the fact that I did have a badge that matched their badge.

[00:10:43] , And I'm not, I, [00:10:45] I'm not, like, even though I've ex- I've experienced out of hospital births, I'm not [00:10:50] against, like, full having hospital experience. I think it can It [00:10:55] can be a safe, , and needed environment for many, many [00:11:00] women. , But it wasn't where I felt safe or comfortable, and I think that's the most important thing in choosing , [00:11:05] your care and your birth environment, is like where do you feel safe enough [00:11:10] to be supported and, like, if you want physiology, what's gonna support physiology?[00:11:15]

[00:11:15] And definitely for me, yeah, the bright lights, the machines, all that, I knew that [00:11:20] wasn't gonna work. Um, but I also knew experiencing my care that that wasn't my birth. Like it was, it [00:11:25] was okay to just like go in and get the ultrasound and, um, you know, have like a quick [00:11:30] visit. But the, the other thing is it was very interesting.

[00:11:31] I mean, they don't have continuity of care at [00:11:35] the large hospital there. And here I had one midwife I saw the whole time. [00:11:40] Um, but even in my second birth, I also had an [00:11:45] OBGYN. And so for my second and my third, , it [00:11:50] requires like some agency. Like I have to really, and authority, like I [00:11:55] have to really speak up for myself, which I find disturbing because I think [00:12:00] for most women, they don't do that.

[00:12:02] They just, um, accept what a doctor [00:12:05] says, especially Switzerland's very, uh, doctor-centered, . And, , for [00:12:10] example, in all my pregnancies, I've had elevated thyroid, , T- TSH in the first [00:12:15] trimester. And when this first happened, I went to go see an endocrinologist as a specialist.

[00:12:19] And, [00:12:20] um, I said, "You know, I, I have this, um, this, , extreme hy- [00:12:25] hyperemesis, and I found a few research papers," because I, I was a perinatal epidemiologist, "that said that this [00:12:30] can contribute to elevated thyroid." And he said, "Oh, I didn't know that." And I sent them to them, and the doctor actually [00:12:35] talked with me about it, and he said, "Okay, well, let's wait till the second trimester before I put you on medication."[00:12:40]

[00:12:40] Whereas in Switzerland, um, I've had to fight this my, [00:12:45] through my entire both pregnancies. Every time I go, they check my thyroid. They send me to a [00:12:50] specialist. Specialist said, "Oh, well, your thyroid levels are now, they're normal in the second trimester," which they [00:12:55] are, because I don't have like the elevated first trimester hormones. But every time I go, I have to [00:13:00] fight it, and it's just like that should not be the case, um, especially if [00:13:05] I come in very informed, and it's not a Google search where I've said, "I Googled [00:13:10] this and did my research." So I do find the, the [00:13:15] contrast in the modes of care to be, um, expert [00:13:20] driven in,

[00:13:21] it's like expert, whether it's midwifery or doctor, it's like, "I'm the [00:13:25] expert. I tell you what to do, and you do it." And versus the midwifery model of care that [00:13:30] I've experienced here at a home, h- home birth and birth house [00:13:35] has been more like, "How are you feeling?" You're more driving the, the situation. Of course, they have their [00:13:40] recommendations, but it's not like, "Do this as I say."

[00:13:43] For some, [00:13:45] that may feel comforting to say, "Do this as I say," because maybe they, they, they want someone to tell them what to do. [00:13:50] Fine. It doesn't work for me. So I, um, have to push [00:13:55] back a lot. Um, that's been my main feelings about the [00:14:00] contrast. Um, and I, and, and working with, and through my business working [00:14:05] with, with women when they're pregnant, I try to teach them [00:14:10] how to advocate for themselves and their care, and that can be really hard when [00:14:15] someone's saying, "I'm the expert and I know better than you."

[00:14:18] Um, whether they d- they don't say it [00:14:20] directly, but y- you can feel it, you know it. So, so yeah. [00:14:25] Um, thank you for that. That is, that is really, [00:14:30] uh, insightful. Yeah.

[00:14:32] Julia: great that that's a part of your business. That's a part of something that anyone who works [00:14:35] in the birth sphere, we really have a duty to, um, [00:14:40] teach and educate and expose women , to the fact that they will have to [00:14:45] advocate for themselves at some point.

[00:14:46] And this is a... I tell them like, [00:14:50] "Yes, you know, we do this for yourself. This is a muscle we're gonna, we're gonna work on because [00:14:55] soon you're gonna have a new body. You have a new person that you're gonna have to do the same [00:15:00] thing for." And it's just a constant thread, um, of [00:15:05] becoming, uh, and the self-advocacy is such an important part of it, and that's a really interesting [00:15:10] insight.

[00:15:10] Thank you for that. , Now, , if you had your first at a birth center, then I'm guessing that there was [00:15:15] no, um, medicalized induction, so then you experienced early labor on [00:15:20] your own spontaneously. Uh, we would love to hear how you [00:15:25] experienced that

[00:15:26] Jessica: , I remember reading that it was such a rare percentage of women that their [00:15:30] water breaks. Um, and, and so I thought, "Okay, that's not gonna happen like the movies." [00:15:35] Um, like, okay, this is, I'll start with the contractions, and they'll feel maybe like period cramps, which I [00:15:40] actually don't think they do.

[00:15:40] so I was about 41 and a half weeks, and, , I [00:15:45] didn't panic. I just kind of trusted that everything was gonna happen. I had lunch with a friend that [00:15:50] day, and then I had gone on, uh, we were living in Lausanne at the time, so I had walked up, [00:15:55] Lausanne is just very, like the huge hills.

[00:15:58] And I'd done a massive [00:16:00] walk that day just 'cause I felt like just walking. And, um- That [00:16:05] night, , I went to sleep and, I woke up around like 1:00 with the urge to pee, which [00:16:10] is not odd because you would go to pee like 10 times at night. But it was really strong. I felt like I [00:16:15] had to like jump up out of bed.

[00:16:16] And when I jumped up, water just gushed out of me. And I [00:16:20] just stood there in shock, 'cause I was like, I didn't expect my water to break, you know? I, I was not expecting [00:16:25] that. And I looked down and I was like, "Okay, that's a huge puddle. That's not pee." Like [00:16:30] and so I yelled for my husband, 'cause he had actually fallen asleep on the couch, and, uh, we just...

[00:16:33] I said, [00:16:35] "I think my water just broke." And, um, and they're like, "Well, what do we do?" And I was like, "Well, I, I [00:16:40] remember we should rest. In early labor, we should rest because, you know, we wanna have our [00:16:45] energy." And it was 1:00 AM. I had just fallen asleep like three hours prior or something, and [00:16:50] Um, so we laid down.

[00:16:52] I remember we texted my midwife that my water had broken. [00:16:55] She said, "Well, call me in an hour and just, you know, see how things are going." And, [00:17:00] um, we laid down together trying to rest. [00:17:05] Rest was out of the question. Like, it was... Every contraction, I would just, like, sit up, [00:17:10] and it was so strong. I mean, 'cause my water had broke.

[00:17:12] And, you know, after your, your water breaks, they just tend to be, [00:17:15] uh... there's less cushioning, there's less stuff. They, they just tend to be stronger. And, um, [00:17:20] so I was like, "I can't rest." And so we, we timed them, and they were [00:17:25] three or four minutes apart already. Very strong. And [00:17:30] my history, my mother and my grandmother had all had, like, three-hour labors.

[00:17:34] I [00:17:35] had told my midwife this, just in... there might be some, some genetic links. [00:17:40] And so I thought, "Okay, we're gonna have a fast birth. Like, let's, um, get to the birth [00:17:45] house." And, I remember, like, for some reason, I wanted my husband to pack [00:17:50] sandwiches, which I never touched during the birth.

[00:17:53] But they were very important before we [00:17:55] left. And, I took a shower, and then, we called an Uber. And this was interesting [00:18:00] because we, we didn't have a car. Um, we hadn't had a car for years. I hadn't been in a car [00:18:05] for a long time, especially in the, the city. And I remember, like, getting [00:18:10] in and just being like, "I have to be quiet.

[00:18:12] I cannot let this Uber driver know that I'm in labor, or [00:18:15] he won't take us, or, like, he will drop us off somewhere on the side of the road." It was very irrational, [00:18:20] but at the same point it was like, I guess it's what you see in the movies sometimes, like, taxis [00:18:25] refusing pregnant women. Um, and I now [00:18:30] know, reflecting back, that this stalled my labor completely.

[00:18:33] Like, I didn't feel safe, and [00:18:35] I stopped my labor. So when I got to the birth house, there were no contractions. Nothing was really [00:18:40] happening. But it was so nice to get there to the birth house. It was only probably a three or five-minute [00:18:45] ride anyway. But it was so nice to get there and, , the candles were lit.

[00:18:48] You could smell [00:18:50] aromatherapy. It was just so calm, and I was just like, "Ah, this is where I'm gonna birth my baby." And I just, like, [00:18:55] felt very calm, especially from the, very short, uh, stressful car [00:19:00] ride. My midwife suggested that I rest, and that was kind of the beginning. So things were very [00:19:05] just calm after that.

[00:19:06] . So , those early hours, I would say, like, between, like, 1:00 AM and [00:19:10] 5 a.m., were very kind of blurred, just [00:19:15] walking around, moving, resting. And my contractions started to [00:19:20] increase and build back up.

[00:19:23] And I remember getting in [00:19:25] the birth pool. For me, with all my births, water is my haven. [00:19:30] It is just what I need to manage the strong sensations [00:19:35] to make me feel calm and relaxed. And yes, I was there [00:19:40] for a while. I remember some very emotional moments of [00:19:45] just crying, being so happy that I was here about to birth the [00:19:50] baby.

[00:19:50] And it was very calm. There was nothing stressful. It [00:19:55] was really, really beautiful. And I mean, of course, I threw up a few [00:20:00] times and there was some moments where the contractions felt [00:20:05] a bit intense. And after I had been quite a long [00:20:10] time, I started to question. I was like, what's going on here? Why isn't it [00:20:15] time yet?

[00:20:16] And I did get cervical checks in my first [00:20:20] birth. I didn't in my second. And my midwife, [00:20:25] luckily, she never told me what it was or she never said, she just said, you're progressing [00:20:30] or let's maybe move positions a bit and get up and walk around [00:20:35] to increase the progression. At one point she checked me, she said, "Okay, you're about [00:20:40] eight or nine.

[00:20:40] I think you can start to push." And I didn't feel like pushing. [00:20:45] Um, there was nothing in me that felt like pushing. But I, I went with what she said, you know, [00:20:50] 'cause, uh, at the time, I-- that's, that's what I knew. And so I was pushing in the [00:20:55] bathtub, and I just was like, "I've never feeling so big and just, like, [00:21:00] uncomfortable."

[00:21:01] And they had a rope, and I was squatting. I was getting on my knees and, and it was [00:21:05] just, like, really nothing was happening. And I said, "This is just a waste of my energy." So [00:21:10] she said, "Why don't we get out?" And she took me over to this birth stool. And I was like, "What is this [00:21:15] primitive object?" And there was a rope hanging from the ceiling.

[00:21:19] And she [00:21:20] said, "What we're gonna do is we're gonna work with your contractions." So my husband was behind me and, like, kind of [00:21:25] cradling me. I was squatting over this birth stool, but I would lean back on him when a contraction [00:21:30] wasn't happening and rest. When a contraction happened, I would lean forward, pull the rope, and kind of [00:21:35] be squatting and, and push very, very, like, strong effort [00:21:40] pushing.

[00:21:40] I did that a few times. And it was just, like, this nice rhythm of as-- [00:21:45] even though I was pushing really hard, um, where, like, I could feel me and my [00:21:50] husband just being, like, really close and beautiful. - The first birth was definitely all about, [00:21:55] like, that. I-- we, we felt very close. And I'll contrast it with the second where he was, with my toddler [00:22:00] and very not-- like, I bar-barely saw him.

[00:22:03] Then about 20 minutes later, [00:22:05] um, she, uh, well, the baby came out. And, um, [00:22:10] it was like, "Oh, wow, it's here." And my midwife put the baby on my chest. And I was just [00:22:15] like-- She was so slimy and puffy, and, um, we didn't know it was a girl. And so [00:22:20] my midwife, through, like, broken English and French, I said, "Oh," after a [00:22:25] few minutes, I was like, "What is it?"

[00:22:26] And she, , lifted up her legs and said, "I see no balls." [00:22:30] And so, like, everyone was just, laughing [00:22:35] 'cause

[00:22:37] Julia: it was just like- Oh my God, that is such a funny way of putting it. I love it.

[00:22:39] Jessica: So [00:22:40] I found out, the sex of my baby, like, through that, and it was just... It was so funny, and then, [00:22:45] yeah, she just, laid on my chest for a while, and I had, a small tear, so they, [00:22:50] they stitched me, and she breastfed right away, [00:22:55] and I ate some food, and we went home three hours later, , [00:23:00] so it was 13 hours from the water breaking to her birth. It was [00:23:05] at the... You know, it, it still is one of the most empowering experiences of my life, . and it [00:23:10] was what I wanted. I had the non-intervention, you know, natural birth that I [00:23:15] wanted.

[00:23:15] It gave me a lot of confidence in my body, and that... Like, I learned that my body could give [00:23:20] birth. And, um, I was very lucky too. I had a low-risk pregnancy. I [00:23:25] didn't have any complications. Um, so it, it enabled me to also have this [00:23:30] experience.

[00:23:30] So then around, , three years later when [00:23:35] we, were preparing for my second birth, I reflected on the, the first.

[00:23:39] And [00:23:40] for most women, I would say they would look at my, my story and my birth and [00:23:45] say, "That was perfect." Like, "Of course," like, "you'd be lucky to have that again." And a lot had changed in [00:23:50] me because I had gotten m- more involved in birth education. I was starting to develop my b- develop my [00:23:55] business. I got really into physiological birth.

[00:23:57] I was studying with Dr. Rachel Reed, [00:24:00] who wrote, , Reclaiming, Childbirth, and Rites of Passage. And [00:24:05] I learned that, , things like the Uber drive had disrupted my labor, so [00:24:10] I learned that cervical checks are actually an intervention. I mean, um, [00:24:15] they can serve as a way of interrupting.

[00:24:16] They're not an intervention as we think in, in terms of a medical sense, [00:24:20] but... And it's not that midwives don't practice them, but practice them when they're needed, but they don't [00:24:25] need to be regular. And so for me, the cervical checks felt a bit invasive. They didn't feel good, [00:24:30] and they, they made me question.

[00:24:32] Even though she didn't tell me, she didn't say how far I [00:24:35] was, I knew that she knew, and I didn't know what she knew. And so, [00:24:40] um, and then I learned that, like, directed pushing is also a way [00:24:45] of, of like... I, I knew that I didn't wanna push when I was told [00:24:50] to push, and so I didn't think it was time, but I did it anyway.

[00:24:53] And so I knew I [00:24:55] wanted these things to be different. And, um, and then when we were here, [00:25:00] we moved cities, and so I went to a new birth house to see if I [00:25:05] wanted to give birth there. And, it's very nice, but They don't provide [00:25:10] continuity of care, so I would have had a different midwife.

[00:25:13] And they said my daughter probably [00:25:15] couldn't be present, which was very important for me.

[00:25:17] So we decided to, to have a home birth, [00:25:20] and this was based solely on wanting to support physiology, and I felt more [00:25:25] confident after the first. And, it's interesting because I would have thought [00:25:30] that having a out-of-hospital birth the first time and having the, you know, out-of-hospital birth the [00:25:35] second time, I would feel very prepared.

[00:25:37] But in preparing for my second birth, I [00:25:40] really went more internal. Like, I spent a lot of time [00:25:45] analyzing my fears, my anxieties, um, what I wanted to [00:25:50] feel in the experience. And also the home birth, it, it, it [00:25:55] felt, even though we're about Maybe a five or 10-minute drive to [00:26:00] the hospital, it still felt like there was a higher risk there.

[00:26:04] And, [00:26:05] um, so I had to kind of confront that, and if a transfer was needed, how I would [00:26:10] still feel in control of that decision. .

[00:26:12] Julia: That's such an important question to ask yourself when [00:26:15] you're having an out-of-hospital birth, is how would you handle the transfer? [00:26:20] And not just how you would handle it in the moment, like what would your internal experience be? [00:26:25] What would your memory be of that experience if you did have that transfer? And if, and what those kinds of [00:26:30] questions bring up tells you things that you should probably work on before you have that out-of-hospital [00:26:35] birth.

[00:26:35] Jessica: Exactly. Exactly. So I-

[00:26:37] Julia: Yeah, that's a hard question.

[00:26:38] Jessica: Yeah. [00:26:40] Yeah, and it's something I work with, with, uh, when I work with, with women now. It's like, you know, birth [00:26:45] is... I feel like the natural birth word gives you a message. Birth is [00:26:50] natural. Our bodies were made to do it. You can do it. It's safe. Like, birth is risky. [00:26:55] There are risks, and, like, we shouldn't just blindly trust ourselves, and sometimes [00:27:00] interventions are needed.

[00:27:00] There's actual pathology. And so [00:27:05] we have to be prepared enough to be able to [00:27:10] handle that. It's not a failure of our body. It's, it's actually saying we need more support, and [00:27:15] that's okay. And so, leaning into this, requires, a bit of surrendering and to trust. You have [00:27:20] to trust your body and also trust the people that you are, you know, [00:27:25] facilitating your, your experiences.

[00:27:26] Christine: How, how easy was it to find a home birth [00:27:30] midwife?

[00:27:30] Jessica: So, um, there weren't very many, and then I wanted one who spoke English. [00:27:35] So at the time, um, there was one. And I, I [00:27:40] remember writing her. I was like, "Are you available?" And she was. She was going on vacation, I [00:27:45] think, around the time I was 37 weeks, but she also had a backup midwife. And that's the thing, [00:27:50] too, you know?

[00:27:50] I wanted to make sure I had a nice dialogue and relationship, so luckily [00:27:55] everything worked out really well, and, um, I loved her, and unfortunately she's not available [00:28:00] for this third birth. Um, she's on vacation. , I think she comes back when I was, when I'm about [00:28:05] 41 weeks, and I was just like, "That's, that's too tight," so I found, I found another midwife, and so I've had, [00:28:10] yeah, now, now a third midwife for the third baby. Um, and it's, it's going g- fine. [00:28:15] But, um, but yeah, my second birth was So [00:28:20] surprising. . I had, contractions that would wake me up for about the week prior.

[00:28:23] So I didn't have this at all with [00:28:25] my first birth, and so I knew my body was kind of rearing up. It was signaling to me that it was happening. [00:28:30] Um, but it was interesting. So my mother was here to try to help take care of my [00:28:35] toddler, and she was here for the first birth too, but, um, we, [00:28:40] we don't have the, the easiest relationship.

[00:28:42] And we had some conflict [00:28:45] during this period, and I was just like... I felt that [00:28:50] sense of I don't feel safe to give birth with this situation. And [00:28:55] I had to ask her to leave and go... She w- yeah, it was really hard. It was a hard thing to do, to [00:29:00] say, "I need you to leave for a few days and come back. And when you come [00:29:05] back, I need the focus to be on me right now because I need to give birth."

[00:29:09] I was 41 and a [00:29:10] half weeks again, which fine, like, that seems to be my rhythm. Um, [00:29:15] but I just felt this, like, holding back and resisting. So, [00:29:20] um, she left.

[00:29:22] Christine: This, this is incredible because- Yeah ... I mean, [00:29:25] I, we talk about this for, you know, hey, if you get a weird vibe from the midwife at, or, you know, from [00:29:30] the hospital, like, listen to that, and even that is intimidating to people, like [00:29:35] firing the midwife or s- changing providers, but this is on another level.

[00:29:39] [00:29:40] And- Yeah. ... the courage that it takes to say that, "Here is what I need, and [00:29:45] you're not part of it right now"- Yeah ... that's incredible.

[00:29:48] Jessica: Yeah, it was really hard. [00:29:50] It was also a defining moment in our relationship of some things that we [00:29:55] hadn't, dealt with. Um, and- It, [00:30:00] it's also, I mean, when you become a mother, you learn what it takes [00:30:05] to be a mother., If you come from, a history of trauma, I have some various [00:30:10] traumas in my life, um, all that can come up when you enter into motherhood. And [00:30:15] so that happened for me after, in between these two births and pregnancy. And I didn't [00:30:20] expect it, but it, it taught me so much. And, I knew I had to, [00:30:25] in that experience, that I had to advocate for myself to be able to birth my baby, or I would be going to the, the [00:30:30] hospital and getting an induction and having an experience I didn't want.

[00:30:32] So as hard as it was to say... [00:30:35] And she left for three days. She went to, like, a spa, and, um, I think it was good for her 'cause she maybe [00:30:40] she needed to release some tension as well. . The day she came back, actually, I felt the [00:30:45] contractions starting during the day.

[00:30:46] We were out walking. So I had the, the birth environment [00:30:50] in my bedroom set up with a birth pool, some fairy lights, and some pictures, [00:30:55] and, you know, the typical serene environment that you would Set up at home. [00:31:00] And, I was still breastfeeding through that pregnancy, and so I breastfed my daughter to [00:31:05] sleep, which can act as a, a, a trigger.

[00:31:07] And I think it did 'cause then [00:31:10] the contractions just picked up and, my husband put her to sleep and then, I [00:31:15] knew it was happening. And I knew that I wanted to have that time to myself. [00:31:20] And so I didn't tell him for the first hour. I didn't call my midwife. I didn't do... I [00:31:25] just, like, shut the door, put on my headphones, and was, like, rocking on my ball.[00:31:30]

[00:31:30] Just, like, this, like, internal cocoon. It was so calm and peaceful [00:31:35] and beautiful. And then, um, he had woken up because he'd fallen [00:31:40] asleep with my daughter, and he came in just to check on me, and I said, "Oh, I think we're gonna have the baby [00:31:45] tonight." And he said, "Do you want me to call the midwife?"

[00:31:46] And I said, "No, I, I really just like having this time to myself. [00:31:50] Maybe just text her and say that the contractions have started. And, come check on me in 45 [00:31:55] minutes to an hour." And so he came back and, um, I think I called him within 30 [00:32:00] minutes. I was like, "Hey, they're getting really strong." And then when he was in the room, I said, "Can [00:32:05] you get me a bucket?"

[00:32:05] 'Cause I felt like I was gonna throw up. And as I was saying that, my [00:32:10] water broke. I was, like, on my hands and knees on the ball, and my water broke. And then I said... [00:32:15] It just felt so strong. I said, "Call her now," like, she has to come. And, [00:32:20] um, he said, "Do you want me to fill up the birth pool?" And he said-- I said, "No, don't fill up the birth pool because I [00:32:25] don't want it to get cold."

[00:32:25] It was my, like, main concern about the home birth, the birth pool [00:32:30] would be cold. Like, no one wants to step into a cold birth pool. And, [00:32:35] uh, and so I got in the bathtub, and I was in the bathtub [00:32:40] for about 30 minutes, and it took about 30 minutes for my midwife to arrive. And she looks at me, and [00:32:45] she's smiling, and, uh, "Good to see you."

[00:32:46] And my daughter had woken up. She was coming in and out. Um, [00:32:50] and, um- Then my midwife says, "I'm gonna fill up the birth pool." And [00:32:55] again, I said, "No, I don't want it to be cold." Like, it had been three hours, so [00:33:00] I thought, you know, compared to the first 13-hour, even if my labor was half, we were halfway there. [00:33:05] Um, and she said, "We don't-- I'm not sure we're gonna have time."[00:33:10]

[00:33:10] And I was like, "What?" Like, it... Just from looking at me and hearing me, [00:33:15] she knew, you know, it was... So she filled up the birth pool and, [00:33:20] um, that was, yeah, about 30 minutes. And then within 20 minutes of [00:33:25] getting into the birth pool, I... And I stepped in. It was so warm and nice, and back in the [00:33:30] dark room. And, um, I started to feel the [00:33:35] pressure, you know, around my, my rectum, and I was just like, "Oh, I feel so much pressure."

[00:33:38] And she said, [00:33:40] "Yeah, well, maybe, maybe the baby's pretty close." And I said, "Yeah, maybe." And I hadn't had any cervical [00:33:45] checks. I hadn't had, you know, nothing. It was really just me , and my [00:33:50] body, and it was so beautiful. And I kind of panicked. I said, "Will you check me?" And she said, "Are [00:33:55] you..." She put on the gloves.

[00:33:55] She said, "Are you sure? You know, you don't need to be checked." I said, "There's no way I'm [00:34:00] dilated." I thought, in, in my, in my head I was like, "Okay, the baby's ready to come, but I'm not open enough. Like, [00:34:05] what's gonna happen?" Which is so silly. Of course you're open enough if the baby's gonna come out. [00:34:10] And so she put on her gloves and she was going, and then she came towards me and I said, "No.

[00:34:13] No, no. Baby's coming. Like, [00:34:15] it's, it's coming." And, um, I remember she gave me, a comb, you know, 'cause I, I [00:34:20] was experiencing some really strong, contractions. And I got on my hands and knees in the birth pool and I was [00:34:25] grabbing the comb because my husband ended up having to be with my daughter a lot more than we thought, 'cause she [00:34:30] was just...

[00:34:30] We prepared her a lot for the birth. We read books and I practiced the noises, but [00:34:35] in the end she was like, "It's too loud," you know? And so she was kind of in and [00:34:40] out. Um, and the second midwife had arrived, but I [00:34:45] didn't really notice her arriving. That was the, a huge difference in between [00:34:50] both births, is like, I didn't notice anyone.

[00:34:53] And, and I think that that's, [00:34:55] like, a true uninterrupted birth.

[00:34:58] , So then, I was like, [00:35:00] I didn't push. I was just like, "This baby's coming out." [00:35:05] And I just like kind of like went er, and then out. Like it was [00:35:10] this like flew out of me, and I, I put the baby on my chest and, [00:35:15] uh, it was sort of a moment of shock, 'cause it was like from the first contraction to [00:35:20] the birth, it was four hours.

[00:35:21] Which I was, you know, second births go that way. Um, [00:35:25] and I was at, at home, so I was like in my, it was in my zone, you know? Like, perfect birth [00:35:30] conditions. Um, and again, yeah, we didn't find out the sex, and so we found out it [00:35:35] was a boy, and then my daughter and my husband were there, and it was just this [00:35:40] very peaceful environment.

[00:35:41] And, . I think I stayed in the pool for maybe 20 minutes, and then we got out, and [00:35:45] we went to the bed. And I birthed the placenta, and, he [00:35:50] breastfed, and everything was fine. Because I had continued to breastfeed, you know, there was nothing. It was, it [00:35:55] was all fine. And, um, yeah, it was ... I was like, but I was like full of [00:36:00] energy, um, compared to the first one.

[00:36:02] I was like, you know, that adrenaline that you have at the [00:36:05] end so that you can take care of your baby, and I, it was, I was like full adrenaline. My midwife was like, "You [00:36:10] need to rest." I was like, "Ah, no, let, let me get some pictures. We didn't get any pictures." And I was like,

[00:36:14] Do you [00:36:15] need some help cleaning up?" She was like, "No, like go sit down." And

[00:36:19] Julia: Oh, man, that, [00:36:20] that, like, uh, that postpartum hormone rush can really- Yeah ... make you feel like, I mean, [00:36:25] you are a literal goddess in this moment. So let's be honest, you can do anything. But that [00:36:30] midwife was probably like literally sh- like pushing your shoulder on the bed like, "No, [00:36:35] girlfriend."

[00:36:35] Jessica: I feel like- "

[00:36:36] Julia: You need to rest."

[00:36:37] Jessica: That's the only time she told me what to do was like after.

[00:36:39] Julia: Yeah. "

[00:36:39] Jessica: Go [00:36:40] lay down." Like, you know?

[00:36:41] Yeah, I think if, if I was [00:36:45] to contrast the two, my first birth was indeed the most empowering experience of [00:36:50] my life.

[00:36:50] It taught me that I could birth. And then my second birth taught me, like, how [00:36:55] physiology actually works in birth, and what my personal needs were, and [00:37:00] how to facilitate that. And, and again, I was, I was lucky. Nothing went wrong.

[00:37:04] , Postpartum was [00:37:05] Was, was great. Um, midwives came to the [00:37:10] house, as they did for the first birth, and breastfeeding was very easy for me. [00:37:15]

[00:37:15] Julia: And because of continuity of care, you had the same midwife for your [00:37:20] postpartum support, and this was for both of your births, both the birth center birth and your home birth.

[00:37:23] Yeah. So you knew this [00:37:25] person, and this person knew you- Yeah ... through this transformation as well. Yeah. This is the, yeah, [00:37:30] this is, makes a big difference too. So integral. Yeah. Yeah. It is, and it's so uncommon [00:37:35] really.

[00:37:35] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah, no, I knew her. It was really both a, both were [00:37:40] just an amazing experience. Um, and I mean, everything [00:37:45] went fine. The breastfeeding was, was fine. I had, um, as you do with your, [00:37:50] your second baby, I had, like, uh, more milk, and I was still [00:37:55] breastfeeding my, my daughter. And so it was just like I had to [00:38:00] try to reduce my supply, which was, which was a new experience for me, and I don't think it's common, [00:38:05] and I hadn't heard of it, so I was like, "Oh, how can you have too much milk?"

[00:38:09] I always hear about, [00:38:10] hear about women having not enough milk. So that was kind of a, a management thing in the [00:38:15] first few weeks. And yeah, then postpartum was more difficult the second time [00:38:20] around because I couldn't rest as much. So even, in the [00:38:25] healing process, my midwife was like, "You need to try to rest a bit more, like, if you can."

[00:38:29] But it was hard, and I had [00:38:30] a toddler running around and no family around. And, um, [00:38:35] so preparing now for the third one, that's, I'm like, "Okay, I have now two [00:38:40] running around, so how do I facilitate rest?"

[00:38:43] And yeah, what was different, [00:38:45] um, definitely for the second and now for the third is that I, I [00:38:50] work in the field, and you know, birth was part of the transition, but [00:38:55] the transition into motherhood is really being a mother and engaging in mothering.

[00:38:58] And [00:39:00] so, in preparing myself now for the third, I, I focused very little on birth. I will in the [00:39:05] next coming weeks because I know I need to, like, get in that, that, that frame. I focused more on the [00:39:10] transition, what does it mean to me as a mother with my identity and, um, my family [00:39:15] and how do, how are things shifting and how do I feel?

[00:39:18] 'Cause now my children are [00:39:20] six and a half and three and a half. They can... Yesterday, they were home, they're playing. I was able to, like, write on my [00:39:25] substack, and, you know, that's not gonna happen with a newborn again. It's gonna be back to [00:39:30] those early postpartum years, and how do I handle this shift in myself again?[00:39:35]

[00:39:35] Um, so that's really been my focus on, [00:39:40] on the third baby, is with myself. I mean, other than having the prenatal care [00:39:45] and finding the midwife and doing all the things that I need. and I know I do need to start preparing for [00:39:50] birth. I, I, I keep forgetting, like, what week I am and you know? I don't wanna, like, just go into it and be like, [00:39:55] "Oh, yeah."

[00:39:55] It happened so easy the first few times because there's always, like, . the third can be a little bit [00:40:00] unpredictable as all births, but yeah. So, that's sort of where I'm at [00:40:05] now.

[00:40:05] Christine: How was the transition for your daughter , with the new [00:40:10] addition?

[00:40:10] Jessica: We tried to prepare her quite a lot in, like, playing with baby dolls, and [00:40:15] just what it would be like, and that Mama wouldn't be as available, and even with breastfeeding, that y- she'd [00:40:20] have to share. She was three and a half, um, so th- you know, they're not gonna [00:40:25] understand very much.

[00:40:26] But, it went okay. In the, in the beginning she was jealous. But she never took the [00:40:30] jealousy out on the baby. She never, you know, uh, she really [00:40:35] liked him, and, um, they, even now, they get along really [00:40:40] well. I'm an only child, so , when we expanded our family into more than [00:40:45] one child, it was, I had to learn how to, like, [00:40:50] engage in parenting practices that facilitated relationships between siblings, because it's not [00:40:55] just, it's not the siblings.

[00:40:56] I mean, it's more about how the parents handle the siblings. So just, like, [00:41:00] even, even when I was breastfeeding the baby and I couldn't come, like, I wouldn't say, "I can't come [00:41:05] because I'm breastfeeding the baby." I would say, "I'll be right there. Um, here, you know, can you [00:41:10] do that until I finish?" I tried to never put the emphasis on the baby takes [00:41:15] priority over her.

[00:41:16] And so I think that really helped. . And now she's really [00:41:20] excited. Um, 'cause she's six and a half, so she understands more. I think my son, it'll be [00:41:25] hard. Um, both of my kids have been, like, you know, [00:41:30] stuck to my legs.

[00:41:31] Uh, they're, they're very mama, uh, centered. Um, [00:41:35] so it's, it's, it is a transition when you, when you go into more than [00:41:40] one kid, and, , for the whole family.

[00:41:43] Julia: Absolutely. Before [00:41:45] we wrap up, because it is so uncommon to hear stories of tandem feeding- [00:41:50] Hmm ... a lot of women first off in pregnancy find it really difficult to continue breastfeeding because [00:41:55] of breast sensitivities and changes in breast milk, so I'd love to hear about that.

[00:41:59] But then [00:42:00] also, once baby arrives, um, we'd love to hear about how that experience was. This is a really [00:42:05] uncommon story, and would be- Yeah ... super useful to get your perspective.

[00:42:08] Jessica: Yeah, thanks for asking. [00:42:10] Um, I wasn't sure that I was going to do it at first. I wasn't like, uh, "I'm gonna, [00:42:15] like, tandem feed 'cause it's, like, a, a warrior woman's s- st- status."

[00:42:19] [00:42:20] But I had a breastfeeding philosophy from the beginning that, I would quit when my daughter was [00:42:25] ready, and it's, I actually wrote in my, my most recent article on, on [00:42:30] Substack, where I write about mothering and, and birth, that, uh, that changed, [00:42:35] actually, um, with my second. And I'll, I can talk a little bit more about that.

[00:42:38] So I kind of pushed [00:42:40] through the pregnancy uncomfortableness. , And , in [00:42:45] some ways it helped to breastfeed while being pregnant, especially since I was, I, I was quite [00:42:50] tired and sick in the first trimester. It was just, like, very calm, and it would be this moment [00:42:55] of connecting with my daughter as well, which was really nice.

[00:42:58] My supply did [00:43:00] reduce significantly, and towards the end it was gone. I mean, you, then you, you tend to focus more on [00:43:05] building colostrum. So, um, I did, like, dry nurse her, [00:43:10] but I did reduce the nursing quite significantly. So I would nurse her only at [00:43:15] bedtime and nap time. And, um, [00:43:20] yeah, so it was, it was okay during pregnancy.

[00:43:23] It was, it went better than I thought. And [00:43:25] then when my son was born, it was very helpful [00:43:30] because I had just a, a big supply, and so to breastfeed my toddler [00:43:35] was very helpful. It was like a relief, um, because she really [00:43:40] helped with that. , Now that may have also helped to increase the supply. [00:43:45] But I don't know.

[00:43:46] Especially the early months, it was very, very easy, and I was glad I [00:43:50] had stuck with that decision. Um, but then I [00:43:55] realized that I was just, like, very tired of feeding two children. And, [00:44:00] I kept pushing through, because I thought it's what I should do. You know, a good mother should [00:44:05] breastfeed her baby until, till the baby wants to stop.

[00:44:07] That was my script. [00:44:10] And even though, and I've done, like, a values assessment afterwards. My values at the time [00:44:15] were, we had a successful breastfeeding journey. I breastfed my child till she was three and a half, [00:44:20] uh, by herself. I tandem fed for a year. So then at four and a half, when she was [00:44:25] getting ready to start school, I was just like, "I am, I'm done.

[00:44:27] Like, I cannot keep [00:44:30] breastfeeding these two children." And it wasn't very much with my daughter. It was, again, bedtime. [00:44:35] Um, she had finished naps, so I think it was actually just bedtime at that point, which also felt very [00:44:40] easy to then transition into weaning her. And she wasn't, like, ready. She wasn't [00:44:45] signing up, "I'm ready to stop."

[00:44:46] But, um, she had [00:44:50] kind of forgotten a few times. So she would nurse, and she'd be like, "Oh, I forgot [00:44:55] how to do it." And I was like, "Well, you know, maybe that means that you're, you're ready to stop." . [00:45:00] I don't think she was ever-- I don't think she ever would've said, "I'm ready to stop." And that was one, a lesson [00:45:05] to me.

[00:45:05] Like, she could've gone till she was seven or eight, and, [00:45:10] um, which would've been, been past now. Um, so [00:45:15] I w- analyzed where that guilt was coming from, [00:45:20] and it was this script, this external, cultural, social, um- [00:45:25] voice telling me this is what a good mother does. And it wasn't mine. It had [00:45:30] nothing to do with my values.

[00:45:30] My values were I breastfed my baby for as long as she needed to. [00:45:35] There. And so then I weaned her, and it was, it was great. And so then when I got [00:45:40] pregnant again, um, which is an interesting story. This third baby was a [00:45:45] surprise. Um, we, uh... 'Cause I had, um, I have [00:45:50] like, uh, since I practice kind of ecological breastfeeding, I have definitely lactational, [00:45:55] um, uh, where I don't have my period when I, when I'm breastfeeding.

[00:45:59] With my other [00:46:00] two, we tried for six months to get pregnant, and this one happened before I even got my [00:46:05] period. And I'm, I'm now 43, so I think it was just my body saying like, [00:46:10] "Hey, this is your last chance. Like, let's have another baby." [00:46:15] Um, so I wasn't planning on tandem feeding. I didn't know, I didn't kind of go [00:46:20] into pregnancy thinking about breastfeeding another child, 'cause I wasn't planning on...

[00:46:24] Uh, I [00:46:25] wanted another child, but, you know, it was not, um, uh, directly in the [00:46:30] cards. Um, so with my son, [00:46:35] he w- he was turning three, and it was kind of the end of my second, my first [00:46:40] trimester, and I was still breastfeeding him. And he, you know, was [00:46:45] nowhere looking to want to finish. And I just started thinking about that, that [00:46:50] narrative.

[00:46:50] Like, um, do I wanna keep breastfeeding him? [00:46:55] And I, I started to feel guilty again, because I had breastfed my child till she was four and a half, my [00:47:00] first. He was three. I should, like, give them equal opportunity. But then I said, "You know [00:47:05] what? I do not wanna..." It had been six years I'd been breastfeeding. And so I weaned him, [00:47:10] and it was, it was fine, like, without an ounce of guilt. [00:47:15] And so it was just like, um... And again, it has to do with a lot of work I do because I, [00:47:20] I work through the cultural and social scripts that we're being taught about what it means to [00:47:25] be a good mother. Um, so I was able to differentiate that [00:47:30] my authenticity in making decisions wasn't truly mine.

[00:47:34] It was coming from [00:47:35] somewhere else. And so that was really helpful, um, in the [00:47:40] third, uh, iteration of breastfeeding. Um, but yeah, I think [00:47:45] it's, I think it's something that it is pretty rare to tandem feed, and I [00:47:50] think it can work out really well. Um, I think [00:47:55] some women approach it, or what I've seen, as kind of a badge of [00:48:00] honor, and I would just say, like, analyze where that's coming [00:48:05] from.

[00:48:05] You know? Where- is that, is that because you're now, like, supermom? And you don't need to be [00:48:10] supermom. Like, really go back to your values about breastfeeding. [00:48:15] Um, which I, I- it's pretty rare, so that's not, like, every single woman. But it, it was my [00:48:20] experience. And, um- Yeah, that was sort of my, [00:48:25] my go with breastfeeding.

[00:48:27] Julia: Thank you so much for that really authentic [00:48:30] look into your life. I really appreciate that, and I find that really interesting and a really good question [00:48:35] for moms to take forward, not just with tandem breastfeeding, but with everything, you know? Natural [00:48:40] birth above all else, or listen to doctors because they have all the answers, or [00:48:45] only listen to myself because I'm the only one who has all the answers.

[00:48:48] All of these scripts that we tell [00:48:50] ourselves and all these things that sort of have this knee-jerk reaction of, be it shame or, [00:48:55] um, uh, p- people pleasing. Whatever it is, [00:49:00] take a moment and, and look a little bit deeper and see where is that coming from, and see if that b- value, if that [00:49:05] belief is really held.

[00:49:06] And, and if so, does it serve you now? I [00:49:10] think that that's a really great message for moms. Yeah. Um, and really interesting, um, [00:49:15] perspective about tandem feeding. I really appreciate that.

[00:49:17] Jessica: You can go into birth with the, like [00:49:20] even, even with my, my... Okay, I want to go into having natural birth, phys- physiological birth.

[00:49:24] You can go [00:49:25] into it, and that can be because you want it, or it [00:49:30] can also be because the, a, a script that that's what I should do. That's where good motherhood starts, [00:49:35] by having this, this perfect birth. And especially with social media, it should be represented a [00:49:40] certain way. But that doesn't serve you or your motherhood at [00:49:45] all.

[00:49:45] And if you end up having an intervention and you've been so tied to that [00:49:50] script, you're gonna feel like you failed, versus saying, "This is my body. This is what [00:49:55] I need. This is where I feel safe." And then if something happens, how will [00:50:00] I handle that? And it can be disappointing. It can be... I, I work, um, with birth [00:50:05] trauma debriefing, and, you know, the, the largest thing that contributes [00:50:10] to birth trauma is how you're made to feel.

[00:50:13] And so if [00:50:15] you go into that knowing how you will feel if [00:50:20] something is going to happen. So if someone says to you in that moment, "You're gonna have to have an emergency [00:50:25] C-section because of X, Y, Z," and you don't feel like you had a voice in [00:50:30] that situation, you're gonna feel worse than saying, "I accept this, and [00:50:35] please explain to me..."

[00:50:36] Y- it takes , 30 seconds to actually explain the situation. "So [00:50:40] explain to me the situation so I feel more comfortable going into this." Or, "Okay, yes, I'm having this procedure, [00:50:45] but I would like to be able to, like, have skin-to-skin." You know, at least honoring that one decision that [00:50:50] makes you feel like you're still in, um, you're still at the center, it's still your [00:50:55] decision, um, is, is really important in birth, in breastfeeding, and motherhood.

[00:50:59] Julia: Yeah. [00:51:00]

[00:51:01] Christine: That's very, very wise and good for everyone to remember. [00:51:05]

[00:51:05] Jessica: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:08] Christine: Okay. I, I hate to wrap [00:51:10] this up 'cause I could... Yeah, this is really, really amazing, and you have so many, [00:51:15] so many interesting parts of this and so much wisdom that hopefully [00:51:20] pregnant women who are listening can, can glean from it.

[00:51:22] Even if their situation is not identical, the root of the [00:51:25] message, you know, is to, to advocate for yourself and to, uh, yeah, [00:51:30] question those, those voices and those assumptions. Our last [00:51:35] question is always: what is your most brilliant moment? [00:51:40] What was your most brilliant moment in all of that, in the two births, pregnancies, everything?[00:51:45]

[00:51:45] Jessica: Oh, la la. Um- I think, [00:51:50] I think the realization that I prepared a [00:51:55] lot for birth, and I prepared very little for motherhood. And [00:52:00] motherhood was more challenging to me than birth. And not from being too [00:52:05] tired or not having support. That was all true. Um, it's more [00:52:10] the identity shift, the, the change [00:52:15] in, in who I was, the triggering of trauma, the being able [00:52:20] to, to parent in the way that I wanted something different for my children, [00:52:25] um, than what I experienced.

[00:52:27] It was a huge wake-up [00:52:30] call for me. And, um, I... [00:52:35] So I not only invested a lot in learning about the [00:52:40] social cultural influences of motherhood that we all inherit that come with, like, patriarchal [00:52:45] motherhood and intensive mothering, and this is what it means to be a good mother, and... But I had [00:52:50] this other script of my own childhood playing in my head.

[00:52:54] So [00:52:55] when my son would cry, I would, I would, I would feel physically threatened because I was, I [00:53:00] was that way. That's what happened to me. And so I had to overcome, um, [00:53:05] my personal traumas. And so I, I went into deep [00:53:10] therapy. Um, and not just this, like, very simple example of a trauma, but I had, um... [00:53:15] I experienced, um, childhood sexual abuse as a child, and I [00:53:20] didn't know it until...

[00:53:22] I'd forgotten it until my daughter reached the age that [00:53:25] I was when I experienced it. And so, um, yeah, this is a whole huge story. I don't mean to go into [00:53:30] this at the end. But, um yeah. So when she was about four and a half, I [00:53:35] had to heal from that. And so I went into extremely deep, [00:53:40] um, trauma healing and healing from CPTSD, [00:53:45] and I had a, an amazing therapist.

[00:53:46] The biggest challenge for me was, was [00:53:50] that, um, for sure. So it wasn't just, um... I had the most [00:53:55] beautiful birth anyone could imagine. Um, that didn't set me up for [00:54:00] successful motherhood.

[00:54:01] It can for some women, and it doesn't for, for everyone. The transition into motherhood [00:54:05] is about our mothering. It's about our life experiences that we bring into it. It's about the [00:54:10] cultural scripts that we get.

[00:54:11] It's about the support that we have from others. It's, it's [00:54:15] so much. It's so complex. It's the, it's the most beautiful thing in, in the world [00:54:20] if you think about what we're taking on. Um, but we really need a [00:54:25] whole different framework. Um, and so for [00:54:30] me, my personal growth happened through, through so much. And, [00:54:35] um- It, it really helps me to understand [00:54:40] mothers a lot better, because we have all these experiences that we're bringing into it that can shape [00:54:45] our, our births, our postpartum, our motherhood.

[00:54:48] And most of the [00:54:50] time, we really just need someone to listen to that, to understand that, and to support that. [00:54:55] So if a, if a woman is fearing something about birth, um, [00:55:00] it has to do with something in her history, it has to do with something someone has told her, it has to do with some sort [00:55:05] of support need that she needs that may be very different from the next woman.[00:55:10]

[00:55:10] And it's important that we make the space and the time for that, and you're not gonna [00:55:15] get that in most medical settings where you go into appointment and you're rushed through and you've been waiting already [00:55:20] an hour, and they're just gonna, like, check, check your blood pressure and tell you, "Okay, you're fine," like, and [00:55:25] check back in at this week.

[00:55:26] You know? You're not gonna get that, and that's more important [00:55:30] sometimes, I, I, I think. So yeah. The very [00:55:35] complicated answer. Yeah. [00:55:40]

[00:55:40] Christine: Yeah. That's very, very well, very [00:55:45] well said and summed and... Thank you so much. [00:55:50] Thank you so much for sharing.

[00:55:51] Jessica: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been so great. I'm, I'm, like, almost in tears [00:55:55] just thinking about everything,