Katie: Two Unmedicated Water Births at Triemli in Zurich, Midwife-Led Care and Feeling Strong Postpartum

Today we're talking to Katie. Originally from Poland, she met and married her Mexican husband and welcomed two children here in Switzerland. Both of her births actually share a surprising thread. Each time, it was a sharp-eyed midwife who spotted something blocking baby's arrival, and the moment it was resolved, things moved fast. Katie also shares a hard-won reminder about the importance of making your wishes known well before you're in labor, because negotiating your birth preferences mid-contraction is not the time. She shares how staying active, doing her research, and trusting her instincts shaped her experience from pregnancy all the way through postpartum Hello, Katie. It is so good to have you on the show. Thanks for being with us. Thank you so much for having me. It's a great pleasure to be here. Thank you. to start off with, we would just love to have you introduce yourself. So I am, Katie. I am a mom of two at the moment. Uh, a gorgeous three-year-old who challenges me every day and tests my patience. Love her to bits, and a lovely, gentle, sweet-hearted eight-month-old, whom I was just putting to bed. Um, my husband is from Mexico. I am from Poland, and I've been living in Switzerland since 13 years. I'm also a, a co-founder of Academicus, a family education center in, in Zurich, and a pre- and postnatal fitness instructor, Let's start at the beginning. How did you guys decide or did you even decide it was time to start a family, how did that come about? So me and my husband, we had been together for seven years, and then we got married. And for me, one thing had to come after the other, so marriage first and children next. And we had spoken about that a few years prior to getting married, that it would be something that we would consider. We w- we didn't say definitely yes, nor definitely no, so it wasn't quite obvious. Although, if you ask my mother, when I was a small child and, and was asked who or what I wanted to be when I grew up, I always responded, "A mom." So maybe deep down, I wanted to be a mom since, yeah, since early childhood. So we got married, and then I think more or less a year after we said, "Okay, we're mentally ready. Let's try." And, uh, yeah, we tried once and got pregnant immediately, which then came as a bit of a shock because you hear all these stories how, you know, people sometimes try for months or years. Um, we tried once. So I was obviously very happy, but, but quite shocked at the same time. Nevertheless, everything went super well during pregnancy. Um, and that's how we started. It can be really quite a shock to the system when you are maybe expecting something to take a long time. You know, you, we hear these stories about, about, yeah, pregnancy, the journey to pregnancy being, can be a really big challenge. And then when it happens really quickly, that can be really shocking. And it can, um, yeah, it can surprise us. This is a huge transformation, and if you think in your mind like, "Oh, I have so much time, so much time to, like- Mm-hmm think about it," and then suddenly you don't Yes. And it, it, so that came as a little bit of a shock, but then, um, the second pregnancy came as a bit of a shock as well because then in my head I assumed it is so easy. Mm. Mm-hmm. It took us, you know, no time. It happened the first time. It will probably be the same with the, with the second one when we decided it is time to have, um, let's try for a second one. And then it took us slightly longer and, and then it was eight months. We finally got pregnant in the eighth month, but those eight months, I must say they were quite difficult, like challenging mentally, um, for me. And again, I know that there are people who take even longer to get pregnant, so I'm very fortunate that, it did work out within those eight months, and I'm super grateful for, for these two little miracles because honestly you just then realize what a miracle it is to be pregnant, go through the whole journey, and then, you know, be a mom to human beings. take us back then to the pregnancy with that little girl, who's now three, and tell us a little bit more about how, how it went. Mm-hmm. Mm, so pregnancy, the nine months, were overall really, really good. Um, I didn't have any nausea symptoms in the first trimester. Uh, the second trimester was, you know, this is the golden trimester. Everything was fantastic. Um, I am a person who, who always has been doing a lot of sports in life, uh, before being pregnant, like my whole life essentially. I, I was a gymnast when I was, when I was, um, a young girl, and just, um, I lo- I love sports. So I was also exercising in pregnancy, in the first pregnancy, um, a lot, managed to go through the whole pregnancy, and yeah. So it was, I would say, a very easy pregnancy in that sense. Towards the end, I got a bit of sciatica, so started going to, um, a physiotherapist for, for... Well, he was giving me some massages, which were nice. Uh, and then in the second pregnancy I found out that massaging isn't everything. So I'll quickly go to the second, second pregnancy as well, because both of them were quite similar in the sense that I had a little bit of nausea at the beginning, nothing terrible. The second trimester was fantastic. Um, and, and then the third trimester was, yeah, was the heavy trimester. And again, I got sciatica, but slightly earlier this time, and again, I went to a physiotherapist, um, for, for some advice and some help, and I landed on a fantastic, uh, lady physiotherapist, and she gave me a lot of pointers for specific exercises to specifically strengthen parts of the glutes and the hips, uh, which were not, uh, kind of mentioned or targeted by, by this other person at all. So this is also something that I then, if I may add, incorporated into the workouts that I was doing in pregnancy. So in the second pregnancy I had a toddler, right? I, uh She was, um, one and a half when we got pregnant. So I had her, you know, a very active toddler, lots of energy, so I was running after her, but at the same time I am running my own business, and I was also helping my sister with her toddler, so sometimes I had two toddlers to run after. And then I realized that, uh, if I don't actually make the conscious effort to move, like to exercise specific parts of my body, I would be just running after these toddlers and doing no other exercises. And, um, through this meet- these few meetings with, with the physiotherapist, she kind of highlighted that you really need to specifically train certain parts of the body, um, to not get more pregnancy pains. As you ladies very well know, pregnancy comes with some discomfort. Sometimes they go into bigger pains. And a lot of these can be alleviated by exercising. So then I decided to, to start a YouTube channel, and actually I started it at eight weeks pregnant already, and do all sorts of different workouts, which helped me make sure that I'm exercising every day and taking care of myself to be fit and healthy and strong in pregnancy, and that was also helping my body. So, you know, the posture was, was being fixed, and the sciatica was being fixed, and all these extra things that might have potentially come up, they didn't come up, and I truly believe it was because I managed to focus on training a little bit every day. So not a lot, um, 10, 15 minutes only, because I only managed to exercise when my little ones were napping, for example. So the dedication to, to exercise was, definitely there, and I also truly believe that that helped me in the postpartum phase. I really felt really good all the way throughout pregnancy to birth, and then after birth, uh, the postpartum went really, really well for me as well. But I'm sure we're going to talk in detail about both of those parts, in a moment. But the... you're right, they are all connected, right? There are different chapters, but what you do in pregnancy affects birth, which affects postpartum. It's all, it's all tied together. So we've touched a little bit then about your preparation into birth, but, what kind of things were you thinking of when you were gearing up for your birth? How did you decide where you gave birth? What are some other kinds of preparations that you and your husband took? So we decided to- that I would give, give birth in here in, in Zurich. And that decision was made because my sister gave birth there, and she was super happy, with, uh, yeah, the doctors and the midwives and, um, the ward and so on. And she at that time had, uh, two, and it was my, my first baby. So she kind of tested, so to say, the hospital twice, confirmed everything was fantastic, and I don't think we even went to see it. We just assumed it's great. It's close also to where we live, um, so we chose it also because of that reason. And then when it comes to preparation for birth, so I was doing the exercises as well as I did a hypnobirthing course in the, the first, um, pregnancy. In the second one, I had a lovely chat with Julia, who also reminded me of many hypnobirthing, pointers. I love the one about, uh, breathing bubbles. Envisioning the bubbles and breathing- Oh, that was such a nice conversation. That's such a nice memory. Thanks. Thanks, Katie. Yeah. So just so everybody knows, we, we did also, uh, a few videos with, with Julia, where we were talking about hypnobirthing, um, as well as your kind- kind of like a short birth story and whether pain-free birth exists. So I kept that one in mind as well in, in the second birth thinking, "Maybe this time I'll, you know, get to a pain-free birth." Not quite. It exists, but it's very unlikely. Not impossible It's out there Not impossible Not impossible Not impossible But most of the time, birth really, really, really hurts, and, and we're better off if we just go with that. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. Yeah. And I think, honestly, then I also did, uh, some sitz baths, it's called, um, to kind of loosen the tissue down there, um, and some perineal massage as well, and I used the, the Epino. Do you know this, um... How would I- Yeah how would I call device exactly? This inflatable, inflatable device Exactly. I used that as well in the first pregnancy, less in the second pregnancy. You need to dedicate actually time for that as well, and, ah, right. Time becomes scarce when you already have one and you're preparing for another one. So those were the preparations, more or less. I mean, I also paid a lot of attention to nutrition, what I was eating, um, to get the right amount of protein and, and vitamins. In the second pregnancy, actually, my iron was kind of dropping, and, the gynecologist said to start supplementing with iron tablets, which I did in the first one. And my body, I don't know if everybody's body reacts the same way, but I got constipated terribly from that, so I decided I'm not going to continue with iron tablets. Instead, I will just start eating even more iron-heavy kind of foods. Um, or in, i- if it does continue dropping, I'll get an iron infusion. But then in the next weeks, it just went up, so I was like, "Ha, perfect. Problem solved." So in that sense, I was definitely paying a lot of attention also to, to nutrition, to eating a lot of eggs. So eggs contain a lot of choline, which is really important for, for the baby's brain development, and eggs with a lot of omega-3. So I was definitely paying a lot of attention to, also what I was eating and how I was, uh- Uh, eating. Um, was there any other preparation? I mean, we... I also prepared a, um, a birth, uh, plan. So my birth preferences, wrote them out in the first birth and in the second birth. Um, delivered that to the hospital. We had a meeting in the first pregnancy. We had a meeting with the midwife at the hospital to kind of go over the birth plan, to go over any questions, expectations, and that was received quite well from our side, and then I left that meeting thinking it will be fantastic. And then in the second birth actually, interestingly enough, I didn't receive a telephone call from them nor an invitation to come or anything like that. So I called them a few, I think, weeks ahead of the due date and, and asked, you know, "I'm, I'm here. I'm registered to give birth. Uh, I had a meeting in the first birth. Should I be having a meeting in the second birth?" And they said, "No, it's all completely fine." And that's something I will talk about, um, in the birth kind of story in the second birth. Um, so that's, yeah, it's just important to make sure that everything is in place, when you are going to give birth at a hospital because at the end of the day... Well, maybe I'll, I'll talk about it now. At the end of the day when, um, I arrived, apparently it wasn't registered in the second birth that I wanted a midwife-led birth only, and then that came with, uh, some nuances and some last-minute birth stress. But I think that would be it when it comes to the preparation so then how did labor start with your e- first, or you can compare them however you like, but yeah, yeah. So actually, interestingly enough, with the first one, I went for a checkup at week 38, for a regular checkup, nothing in particular, and the gynecologist said... And that was a Friday. The gynecologist said that there's not enough amniotic fluid, and if he would be, it was a he, if he would be my doctor, he would advise to induce immediately, which stressed me out like crazy because, I mean, you have kind of this idea that it is a possibility, but if everything is going well you're not really expecting that. So I left the office crying, calling my husband, saying, "Oh, we need to eat a lot of spicy food and go up, um, go up the stairs, up and down, and we need to induce this birth naturally, immediately, right now, right here." Um, and the, the gynecologist said also to call the hospital and ask for an appointment there because he's going away on holiday and cannot admit me on Monday to check the, the fluid if it's just, you know, if it's just his reading that one day or if it's indeed low and, and we need to do something about it. So thank goodness he wasn't there, honestly, because I went to the hospital on Monday. They said, "You're completely fine. Everything is normal. Please come back when you're going to be giving birth." And I, you know, relieved left. What a stressful weekend, though. Oh, yes. Yes. So I was doing a lot of quick, you know, reading what to do, how to do, trying everything. Nothing obviously worked. So Monday, you know, uh, baby was just not ready and, and completely happy and fine, uh, in my belly. So yeah, it was a bit stressful. Doctors shouldn't be saying some things sometimes, I feel. Uh, I think, to say something like, "Wow, this is such a dangerous situation. Oh my gosh, bye, I'm going on holiday," is, is a big mixed message to, a mother. Is this a dangerous situation? Like, is, is there something really wrong? Or is this something that will probably be fine or maybe require f- further monitoring, but no decisions need to be made right now? That is very mixed messaging, and that would be so stressful for every family in that situation. What a weekend that must have been, and then what an appointment that must have been on Monday. That must have really thrown you for a loop really late in pregnancy. I must say I left that meeting on Monday completely relieved. So, so indeed that rollercoaster of emotions over the weekend was huge. Didn't induce labor. But, it was quite something to deal with, uh, towards the end there. So then it was maybe a week later, maybe Yeah, probably a week later, yeah. We decided on a Saturday to go on a spa, relaxing spa to Baden. There's this nice spa there, and just to relax and enjoy because these might be the last moments when baby's not with us yet. And, and I got so relaxed in that spa that on the way out my contractions started. That's one of the things they say, right? That, uh, when you're relaxed and, and your body come, kind of is then ready, um, to start the process, and that's exactly what happened. So it was 2:30 on a Saturday, and the contractions started. And at first I didn't know that that was definitely that. But a few hours later they, uh, you know, they stayed and continued to get stronger. Mm. So by then we were at home, and I was moving around, doing some dancing, doing a bit of stepping, all, you know, high energy, very happy. This is it, kind of anticipating what is coming next. Around, I think, 1:00 AM I decided it is time to go to the hospital, and that's what we did. However, in the hospital, um, the midwife said that I'm three centimeters dilated, and we can stay if we want to, or we can go home if we want to. So in my head, this message was, "Do not stay. You have to go home." This was my interpretation. So we left. We came home for another few hours, and then I think it was around 6, 6:00 AM we were back in the hospital again. And this time I was a bit more dilated. I think it was maybe five or six centimeters. And, um, then I asked specifically to please stay. And in the Shall I continue with the birth story itself? Yes. Sorry. I'm just really enjoying listening to it. I didn't even think to, to respond. Yes, um, please. I am amazed. Yeah, five or six centimeters to be going into the, into the hospital doors, that, that is quite far along, and it can be very, very, very intense at that time. Yeah, please continue your story. Yes. Yes, it was intense by then. Definitely, definitely. Mm, so in my birth preference, I, I requested to have a bathtub. So I jumped in the water immediately, and kind of that was quite nice because then it felt like I was wrapped by, yeah, this water, and it was just calming, um, and had a nice effect on me. However, after a few hours of being in the water, I think the, nothing was really progressing so much. And the bathtub, by the way, was leaking. That was in the old- Oh, my gosh. I was just gonna ask, is this pre-renovation? Yes. Well- Yeah luckily, they had a renovation. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, exactly. So, um, yeah, that bathtub was leaking, so every few minutes they needed to refill the bathtub again, which I found a bit, you know, funny at the time. But essentially, Yeah, I was not progressing kind of fast enough according to, the midwife, so she suggested to also go out of the bathtub because it kind of tires the body if you're in the water too long, right? Um, so that's what we did. We were walking around a bit. I was on the ball for a little bit trying different movements. And at one point, the pain got really, really strong in the bottom of my back that, uh, every time a contraction was coming, first the midwife kind of was pushing really hard, applying a lot of pressure to counter that, that, um, pain. And then she showed my husband where to push. And every With every contraction, I was telling him a bit more to the down and a bit more down, so the midwife was confirming that it seems like the baby's slowly, slowly descending, um, and everything is going the right direction. However, then the midwife suggested to also try something called a rebozo towel. For those who don't, it's like a big towel wrap kind of sheet, um, fabric cloth that they wrapped up around my belly, and they were kind of jiggling left and right, jiggle, jiggle, jiggle, which was not a very comfortable thing, I must say. You're having contractions. You're I was standing. I don't know if there are other ways to do this as well, but I was standing, and my belly was being jiggled around which, um, felt quite bizarre. Potentially, maybe that worked a little bit as well. Um, and you know, throughout this time, these are already quite some hours. I was drinking a lot of water. And the midwife said, "Why don't you try and go to the toilet to relieve the bladder?" So I tried several times. It didn't really work. And then, uh, the suggestion was to have a, a catheter, and that's what we did. And, yeah, a, a lot of urine was then collected. And as soon as, the catheter was taken out, I stood up, and then the pushing started. So essentially- Wow it was like a lot of steps leading up to, you know, kind of that moment, and that one thing was blocking the last kind Yeah, kind of pu- I w- don't wanna call it the last push 'cause then we just started pushing then. But that's when we went into the active part of labor, and then I jumped back into the pool, or pool, the tub, the bathtub. oh, in the meantime, my husband decided to start singing We All Live in the Yellow Submarine. Ah. I'm trying to focus here on breathing. As you very well know, a part of, um, hypnobirthing is also around breathing. So I'm there trying to breathe- Manage, manage the pain, manage the surges. And then he suddenly starts singing We All Live in the Yellow Submarine, and I'm there like, "What, what are you doing?" Of all the songs. These songs. Now I'm going to have this song stuck in my head. For literally the rest of your life when you think of this moment. I, I kind of love it, though. It, it's something to laugh about right now, right? Yes, I'm sure. But at the moment in time, I was like, "Oh, no, no. This is not support. Yeah, so, so, you know, he stopped immediately. And then was just holding my hand, and I was squeezing the life out of him as well, I think, through, through every contraction that came. Um, at one point I even shouted, "No puedo," which is I can't, because the, the midwife was encouraging, "Come on, come on, keep pushing." That phase lasted quite a while. Um, it was 1 hour and 45 minutes, so it wasn't the longest kind of, so to say, but it was, you know, it was intense because in that phase, every minute you have a really strong contraction that then pushes the baby out. So I, I had done that for, I did that for 1 hour and 45 minutes, shouting no puedo at one point, uh, roaring like a lion, like you said, Julia, as well. That's incredible. But then- An hour 45, and triggered all by the noticing of this midwife, like the midwife noticed something is blocking baby's passage down, tried the jiggle with the rebozo, um, which is, I love, I love using this analogy of like if you take like a bottle that has an opening the s- the same size as a marble, if you have a whole bunch of marbles and you tip the bottle upside down, the marbles don't fall out, but if you shake the bottle, the marbles fall down. And so it, it's a very sort of simple way of illustrating this, this principle, and I love that the midwife tried that, and that the bladder, and how that just, yeah, triggered everything, but then to then- Have an hour and a half of the most intensity. Um, were you still in the pool, in the water at this time? I'm saying pool now. Your leaky tub. Were you still in the leaky tub at this time? I was, yes, yes, yes. So that whole time, uh, was in the tub, and, uh, my baby, baby girl arrived in the tub essentially. Yes, so after one hour and 45 minutes, after also encouraging the ah, opening the jaw, relaxing the jaw, which is connected to the pelvis and, and the birth canal. So I learnt a lot in the process of, of birthing as well. Essentially it was completely unmedicated at the end of the day. I must say, I'll be very frank, it did hurt a lot. I did shout a lot, um, to the extent that I had a sore throat afterwards. But then, yeah, baby girl was finally here, and, I had her on my chest, and then the placenta was also born. So I think all of that then went really well, really well. I'm happy to talk about the second birth, uh, kind of immediately, Yeah, I think if the vibe is there, let's keep, let's keep the vibe, and then we'll talk about your postpartums afterwards. Let's do that. So it was again 2:30 in the afternoon, but it was a Thursday this time, and I got some very light contractions, and I was thinking, "Is this it or is this not it yet?" So I this time decided to relax. Instead of, you know, moving and being excited, I decided I'm just going to lay down and relax and try to get some sleep because this time I knew exactly what I was up for. Birth is, um, is quite the workout. Um, it is physically demanding, psychologically demanding as well, mentally demanding. So I, I thought I would rest up a little bit. Um, and then we had a family dinner, so with my husband and, and our toddler. We ate all together. I had contractions regularly every five minutes at that point in time. And then she decided, mm, she- she's the little boss around the house. She decided that Mama has to put her to bed, uh, and that it has to be me, and then she was crying, crying, crying. And, you know, I- I as a mom, as you know, like, you respond to your little one's wishes. Um, so I said, "Okay, good. We'll read one book. You can choose the book, and then, and then you have to go to sleep." So she, she... So we were hugging, and she was crying, and then she goes to choose a book, and the book that she chose is about a family Where the mom is pregnant. It's the whole pregnancy kind of gearing up to, to birth, and then mom comes back with the baby, and then there's a new baby in their lives. And when she brought me this book, I just teared up and started crying terribly with her because she knew. Like, she knew that, uh, that was the last moment that her and I would be by ourselves, and then as of, you know, very soon there would be another, another little human being in our lives. So it was such an emotional moment, and my husband was also there crying. We were all crying. Is that a book you bought for her- So it was a beautiful- in preparation for a sibling? Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So we had several books. Um, this one was a Polish one. It was a rather long one as well, about all the steps, about communicating that the, the baby's there, and then the preparation about buying things. And then, you know, it was quite a long book actually. And you're having contractions. I had to... Yes, I did shorten it. Pregnant, and then here's the baby. Okay, let's- The end. Yeah. So, so we read the book and she... I mean, she knew that something was happening and, right, yeah, I guess she knew that the baby was coming. So then she was very cute and, and sweet, and she was there m- uh, like patting my, patting my hand and going like, "It's gonna be okay, Mama." And I was there like, "Oh, it's going to be okay, baby girl. We're, we're good." It was, it was very, very emotional. And then, um, yeah, a few contractions later she was asleep. And then, uh, so that was around 8:00, and then around 9:00, uh, I told my husband, "Let's go to the hospital," because if she wakes up and then, you know, wants me again, and I really wanted to then already be in this, this state of mind focusing on the, the new baby coming, um, a baby boy by the way, um, and on the birth process, on the labor itself rather than, you know, trying to soothe a toddler. So, so I said, let's please go to the hospital." So we organized her uncle to come and stay here with her, and we left to the hospital. And when we got there, so this was again in Triemli because we were happy with the first time round, so we went there again. This was the new ward. Uh, so no leaky tap this time. However, we get there and, you know, they, they first do a few simple checks. And, the midwife there is trying to put an IV into my vein, and I'm asking, "One second. What is this? Why, why are you putting this into my body?" And they said, "Well, because this is standard procedure." And I'm asking, "One second, but why is this standard procedure when I already gave birth here a few years ago?" And I didn't have this standard procedure back then, so why is this? And they say, "Well, because there's a doctor, and when there's a doctor at, at the birth, then you have to have an IV." And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, one second. I do not want the doctor here. Where is this doctor coming from?" And I said, "I wanted a midwife-led birth. Why is there a doctor here?" And then they tell me that I didn't request that. So you're supposed to request it in the papers that you're submitting. And that goes back to what I mentioned earlier, that I called the hospital and asked, "Is there anything that I need to do? Do I need to make an appointment? Should we come? Like, do we know everything?" And they confirmed back then that it was all fine. And now they're telling me, um, that, um, I didn't request a midwife-led birth. So that stressed me a little bit, and I asked them specifically, "Can I please have a midwife-led birth? Because I did this once and it was fine, and I want to do it again. I don't want a doctor. I don't want an IV. I don't want anything. Like, I don't want anything." And, um, I think that took around half an hour of a few, I guess, discussions, administrative, uh, things around the, uh, uh, among the staff. And then they said that they managed to get a midwife-led birth for me. Thank you very much. I just needed to sign some papers. I didn't even read the papers, honestly. I was like, "Yeah, perfect. this sounds all good." And that was that. So it was like the, yeah, the beginning of being in the hospital was not so pleasant because, uh, it was a bit of a shock to the system that, um, yeah, something unexpected happened that, uh, I, I didn't want and I, I wasn't asking for. Hmm. Did you have to move rooms at that point? Or was it just on their end, a, a shift? It was a shift on their end. So I don't know if they needed to change their staff who was coming in to kind of be with me. That, that I don't know. But, um, from then on, actually a new midwife did come and introduced herself. She was the midwife that stayed with us, until birth itself. Yeah, so that was a bit stressful. And in the meantime, the contractions kind of calmed down, and they said that this is normal when you come to the hospital. You know, change of scenery. It can happen. So then I thought, This is fine," but I would like them to come again because, um, it was a Thursday night, right? And on Friday afternoon, my husband was interviewing for a new job. And he told... He asked me like, "Okay, I mean, if we're having a baby, then I need to move my interview." And I said, "No, no, no. No, don't move your interview. I mean, it's in the afternoon. I'm pretty sure the baby will be here by then. You can go to your interview." And it was, you know, something that he really wanted, and I definitely didn't want me or the situation kind of to, to make any changes. But the contractions then stopped, so then they started again after some time, and then they're building up again. I'm like, "Okay, this is great." Oh, I jumped in the bathtub, by the way, as well. But I thought having had one pregnancy kind of birth, knowing you shouldn't be in the bathtub too long because it can calm things down, I jumped out by my- jumped out, quotation marks, by myself and decided let's walk around a bit. Let's do some dancing. Let's be on the ball a bit. So they, the contractions started building up again. And then they stopped. And I was like, "What is going on?" The midwife said, "Seems like we have an undecided baby, whether he wants to come or not." To, you know, not worry and just, just, just take it easy and continue doing what we're doing, and that, uh, if we want to check something or, or take any other course, then we can, we can talk about it, and we can look into options. I said, "No problem. Sounds fantastic. Let's continue. Let's keep waiting." So she again kind of m- saw how, how much I was dilated. I honestly don't remember by then what it was. So the contractions start building up again, building up, building up, building up, and then they stop again. Ta-da. And this time, the midwife asked if she can have, like, a look with a mirror into my vagina to kind of see if she sees anything or, or if there's anything in particular. And she said that she realized that there was She called it a air bubble, an amniotic sac air bubble. This is, I think that is what she called it. Um, and it seems to be blocking baby. So she said that we can, you know, continue as it is, continue waiting for another few hours or as long as it takes, or we can see whether we can do anything about it. So I said, "Okay." W- I don't remember what the time was, but I said, "Let's hold on for another two hours, and if, you know, by, by that time, then let's do something about it." And, and that's what happened. The midwife explained that with the, another following contraction, she would burst the bubble with her fingers. So she told me to, you know, bear down, to push. She put her fingers into my vagina. The bubble burst. There was a nice big pop. And then immediately, the pushing phase started. So again, it was something- Wow or one thing blocking baby. Yeah. Yeah. From actually coming out into this world. And then how long did you- So- push with him? Mm. Very quickly. Then, then we jumped back into the bathtub, um, and on all fours 20 minutes later, he was out. He was, he was a quick one. Finally, when he decided to come. Mercifully. Mercifully, so much quicker. Yes. Wow. So very grateful to him, but unfortunately he arrived with, with I guess a part of, of, of the sac on his face and blocking his airway so the... I mean, we- midwife saw it immediately, ripped it off immediately. Literally waited a few seconds, and then suddenly they were calling somebody and rushing off and explaining to me that he's not breathing, and I'm there like, "Yes, please, husband, go. Go with them." And, and, you know, I, I'm in the pool kind of trying to get myself out. So they took the baby away, with my husband. They left. I got out of the tub, um, onto the bed, and then started shivering away. I- uncontrollably shivering. I was like, you know, like, yeah, I don't know. It was minus 50 degrees and I was naked and, um, I guess it was just my body's reaction to, to the sudden change of events. I think they were maybe gone for 10 minutes, and then they came back and, um, essentially baby was completely fine, and as they were walking down the corridor, he started breathing and he started crying. And then they measured his, uh, oxygen levels and that was all fine, and quickly did a few checks and he was all fine. So within the next 10 or 20 minutes he was back with me, and again, skin on skin and, and with me and, and everything was okay. But yeah, I mean, I guess my body reacted this way, but in my head I was, I was confident that it would be okay. 'Cause he was... You know, it was like the pregnancy was fine, the baby was fine. Everything was going so well, I, I did not let a thought of something could be wrong, In this time with such a stressful event, was your placenta born? Mm-mm. Mm-mm. Yeah. I think- I think that the- Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Exactly. I think that's connected, right? Um, so in the first birth, the placenta was born I think, like, within half an hour or so, and here they returned baby to me, I don't know exactly, but probably in 10, 20 minutes, and then we had the skin on skin. 10, 20 minutes later nothing was happening, and, the placenta was not coming. So first the midwives tried, um, acupuncture Put some needles in me in a few different places to see if that would stimulate the birth of the placenta. Unfortunately, it didn't. And from my understanding, there's some sort of protocol that if it is not born naturally within one and a half hours, or at least this is what they explained to me, that, that then, you know, something has to be done. So we waited for, I guess, quite some time, and in the end I did get that IV and I did get a bit of oxytocin. And then placenta was born, um, as well, so I guess that ended well that no surgery was needed or anything like that. And it, and it did come out in the end. Yeah. But that was, I guess, a, a result of, of the stressful event, uh, with, with directly after birth and with baby boy. Yeah. Absolutely. Mm. I think it's like Christina said earlier, it's all connected. Mm. And so, I mean, your birth is not finished yet when the baby is born. Birth is finished when the placenta is born. And, and yeah, absolutely the stress of that event of you being separated in that moment, and while your intuition and your reading of the situation was totally accurate, yes, baby was perfectly fine, it is still quite a shock to the system, and you're physically reacted to it. So, um, then take us back to, to that wonderful moment of your baby or your babies being born in the hospital and Yeah, just take us back there. Mm-hmm. All right. So let's go back to baby girl. So birth number one, baby number one. Postpartum is, is a special time. And when it is your first baby, you don't understand. Even if you read, and, and you educate yourself, and you do some courses, and you listen to stories, I feel that it is still, you know, it, it always... Maybe not always, but at least for me, I still didn't know what I was up against, so to say, or what to expect. the hardest thing was breastfeeding. I don't remember hearing before having the first one many people say how breastfeeding hurts. Actually, I do remember a, a neighbor of mine told me that breastfeeding hurts, and if I have troubles with my nipples, she can lend me silverettes. I was like, "What are silverettes?" She goes, "Ah, they're silver cups that you can put on your nipples." And I made a joke that, "Oh, I'll just take some silver jewelry and I'll put it on my breast." By the time I was out of that hospital, I was texting her, "Please bring me the silverettes because, uh, nothing's really working. My nipples are killing me, and I really want to breastfeed this baby." Um, so that was, I think, a challenge, so to say. Breastfeeding was indeed very, difficult at the beginning. Yeah, it was very painful, and the silverettes gave me immediate relief. And literally, I think within a few hours of applying them for the first time, I did feel relief, and I did feel recovery of the nipples. So I was then holding onto them for dear life, I think for two months or three months even, nonstop wearing them just because I thought if I take them off, my nipples will start hurting again. Um, so it was a bit of a journey with breastfeeding. However, it worked out. Um, it worked out well. The midwife that was supporting me, that was coming to me at home, she was encouraging me, you know, that, that we can do this, that, uh, I can use these, uh, these plastic nipple shields to feed if necessary. So I was using those for a while, and then slowly kind of experimented between having them and not having them. I remember that, breastfeeding was something that really surprised me, how painful it is, and not remembering anybody saying how painful breastfeeding is. Everybody, you know, says birth is painful, but not the breastfeeding part. So I'm putting it out there. Breastfeeding is painful and silverettes really did help me. So in case, uh, that helps somebody, I would be happy, happy to have that shared as well. And, um, maybe just another thing about the postpartum is, with baby number one, you know, you have a new human being who's totally rely- reliant on you. And in the first midwife meeting, my baby girl was called a drama queen because she was screaming her lungs out and crying so much and so loud, and I can confirm that she absolutely hated this world Touch. She hated touch. She hated changing breasts from left to right. She hated changing nappies. She hate... Baths was impossible for a few months. Hated that. Like, every... It was, it was, it was quite a struggle at the beginning because she really, really, really, really disliked this world. It was a bit of a testing time at the beginning with, with quite some crying and broken nights. But she, yeah, I mean, three years down the road, I can tell you she's just very, very sensitive, and she still is very, very sensitive and reacts a lot to all sorts of things. Did you have support during your postpartum with your spirited little one? Yes. So I specifically did not want my parents or the parents of my husband to come because I wanted to figure out baby and, and have the time with the baby by myself as a unit of three to start, at least for the first weeks or, or, or months. Um, but yes, my sister lives close by, so, she was available if, if, if I needed her. Honestly, I don't remember if I did. I mean, I'm sure that we, we touched base and, and kind of checked in, um, if everything was fine. Um, but I do remember her saying that, yeah, it is, it is hard to have, you know, a baby and that nobody really understands that until they have a baby. Um, and that I'm doing a fantastic job, and there's a reason why this baby, you know, got me as a mom or I as a mom got this specific baby. Um, and that they wouldn't be able to do it with another mom. So just this reassurance, from the sister that I got as well as some friends. So I'm a person that even though I did not want to have any parents around me a lot, I needed to go out to people. So at the beginning, my husband was with me at home for two weeks only, unfortunately. But then as soon as I was by myself, I, I kind of panicked a little bit, asking again, like, "Oh, can I do this by myself?" And immediately started going for, for walks and coffees with other moms in the neighborhood because we had, I think, five or six moms that gave birth within three months. So that, that's something I definitely needed. So I needed to have some people that I could talk to and exchange notes with. And kind of compare with. And I think all of us were really enjoying the babies and struggling here and there with the babies, and some of them had super easy, chill ones. Um- And some of us didn't, I had the midwife coming regularly every few days at the beginning, and then I had this circle of other moms that we were chatting with and, and connecting with and going for walks That's so essential. Um, and it's, it's not always hard, and it's not y- always easy to do, to get out of the house, especially if you're meeting with a bunch of other moms who all, you know, may And you don't know how well they slept. You don't know what the But to have that support system and to be able to say, "You know, my, my baby's eating beautifully and sleeping is a disaster," and the other one will have a baby that, you know, is sleeping wonderfully and something else. It's, it's always something, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's nice that you had, you had that. And there's a different feeling from that versus having parents around that ev- everyone is kind of learning, right, with these first-time moms versus parents. Sometimes you feel a little judged even if they don't mean it or, you know, you just, like you said, you wanna figure it out on your own in those first weeks. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Definitely. Definitely. Yes. What, what did it look like with number two? 'Cause it's a little bit more challenging when you have a toddler in tow with, you know, hanging out with other new moms and things like that. Yes. Fully agreed. So postpartum with baby boy was indeed different. So Daddy, thank goodness, was home longer this time. He was with us for, for three months this time, so that definitely helped, um, that he had one-on-one time with her and I had one-on-one time with him. And she got the attention that she needed. And when I was able to, you know, um, pay her attention or have some moments with her, then I would do that wh- when I could. And otherwise, I was, you know, focusing on feeding. As, as you very well know, there's a lot of feeding at the beginning, and sleeping in... So in the wrap, he was sleeping, for the first month on me all the time. And indeed, I did not go out for so many coffees and so many walks as I did with number one, because the free moments that I had, I then tried to spend with my little girl rather than going for, for coffee catch-ups. I still did that once in a while, but, but definitely less. Uh, and felt less of a need as well because having gone through kind of the process once, I knew more or less how it would be. And well, baby boy is also a lot calmer. So I'll not call the drama queen or kitten. That helped. Yes. Exactly. How was breastfeeding with him? It was also painful. Mm, so I immediately from the onset brought the silverets with me to the hospital because that's something that worked for me. So I had them immediately and stuck them on me immediately. Did not use the, um, the silicone, nipple shield this time. So it did hurt for the first, I think, two or three weeks, but then everything went fine. Um, and exactly like, uh, the milk production was always good with both of them, thank goodness. Uh, he had a tongue tie at the beginning, but they noticed immediately at the hospital and kind of said, "Let's, let's have a look, like how his latch is and how he will be feeding and gaining weight." But everything seemed fine. Um, however, we did cut the tongue tie. It was under the tongue. This little heart-shaped tongue would come out when he was trying to stick his tongue out because, um, yeah, I knew that that could cause issues in the future. So it would probably need to be done at some point in time anyway, so we, like, took the decision to do it earlier so that nobody remembers anything and, uh, he doesn't have any, uh, complications down the line. And actually, as soon it was, as it was cut, he did start feeding differently. So it did I noticed, and he also started kind of choking, 'cause I guess he was sucking a lot more milk, uh, suddenly than, than what he was used to in the first. I think it was maybe a week or two weeks, um, that he had that, and then it went even better, so to say. And just to say, also in postpartum, I definitely felt strong as well. So like I mentioned at the beginning, I did work out to the very end, you know, day when I, when I was getting contractions and giving birth, and I honestly do feel that, that helped me physically then recover as well faster in the postpartum phase. I felt strong, I felt fit. And of course, um, nights are immediately broken. You know, you have a newborn who, who sleeps on and off 24... over the 24-hour period. Mm, and I never felt, like, very tired or, or like I, I... or depleted of energy. I always felt strong, relatively strong and, and fit and full of energy. Kept definitely paying attention to what I'm eating a lot, keeping all those healthy calories coming in. And then I think within the first week, I started very simple, very gentle diaphragmatic breathing exercises, and then Kegel exercises, and kind of started working from that, um, to then rebuild and recover the body and the muscles I think, um, feeling well in the postpartum, uh, we have to think, like, phys- how much of a physical task this is. You're wearing your baby a lot. You have a toddler you wanna look after. Like, uh, your postpartum experience is going to be completely colored by how strong you feel mentally and physically. And I love hearing that you felt mentally and physically strong in your second postpartum. This is the kind of message that, like, more moms need to hear. Yes, this can be a very depleting time, and of course this is incredibly immeasurably difficult. But y- I love hearing this story, and I love that we get to share this. We can feel good in the postpartum. We need to rest. We need to be take good care of ourselves. We need to be very mindful of the depletion that we're experiencing, but, like, we can feel good Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Fully agreed. And like I mentioned, I do believe it comes down to several things. So one is exercise in pregnancy, right, to birth and, and through birth. Another one is nutrition, right? If you deliver to your body the right nutrients, the right vitamins... And I think every pregnant woman probably could benefit from supplementing as well with extra vitamins and minerals, and that's what I was doing in pregnancy and in postpartum, and I am still doing. I am still breastfeeding my eight-month-old, so I'm still taking my, um, postnatal vitamins. And then like you mentioned, sleep. So, um, it's something to just be mindful about, right? So rest when you can. Go to sleep when baby's sleeping if you can. And it is possible to feel really good. It is possible, and, and definitely I felt really good. And I remember going for, um, for this gymnast kind of open class that we have in the neighborhood with, uh, parents and children, and I had o- my one-week-old, and I met some family, friends, and neighbors, uh, friends there, and they're like, "You have a one-week-old? You look amazing. How do you do this? How do you... Why do you look so good?" So I was receiving such comments after, you know, having gone through the birth experience, um, having a one-week-old that was not sleeping, um, much, obviously fully breastfeeding as well. Um, and it is possible. It is, it is completely possible. So when we only put together kind of the physical aspect and the mental aspect, uh, so the physical wellbeing and the mental wellbeing and making sure that you take care of yourself, it is possible to be a, I call it a strong mama. And then at the end of the day, your baby, your children, your husband, your family, you know, benefit from the strong mama. If, if it's not you, honestly, you know, if, if something fails on your side, then it ripples through the family. So I would love to share the message that if you take care of yourself and make yourself a priority, then everything else will fall into place That's a really, a really good message. And I think a lot of moms think, oh yeah, later. You know, now it has to be all about the baby. But really, taking care of yourself is also about the baby, right? Yes. Because they need 110% of you, and so if you are not well, then they won't be either, right? Yes, exactly. I'm curious about, um, the relationship. How did your daughter respond to the new addition? Yeah, that's an interesting question, actually, because, well, like I mentioned, she's quite an emotional one and, and quite a sensitive one. And she was having quite big emotions leading up to birth. And then when she got to meet her baby brother, in the hospital at first she was scared that he was crying so much, that he was not well. Like, "Why, why is this baby crying so much?" Um, but then she was happy to have a companion. Like, immediately she was happy to be the big sister. She, she started calling herself a big sister, like immediately. And she took to him really, really well, and her big emotions became a lot smaller. So my kind of explanation of this, or the way I interpret it, is that there was something changing in the family. She didn't know what it was or how it would impact her, and then the baby arrived. She saw that it's the baby, and it's okay. And not to say that that solved everything, because I mean, she still has her big emotions, but it became a bit calmer. And I mean, now they are three years old and eight months old. She absolutely loves him, absolutely adores him. Uh, and of course, he's, you know, now starting to move more and, take things away. I feel that sometimes he also calms her, that, if she's having a tough moment, she, she goes to him and starts playing with him or starts cuddling him or teasing him, and I feel that that also kind of helps her deal with, with her emotions. So it's, it is so beautiful to see, um, the relationship between the both of them unfold. And not to say baby boy is like, you know, she is his hero. He adores her. He follows her with his eyes. He tries to get her attention. He laughs a lot. He absolutely adores her. So it's such, such a gift to have the two of them now and, and see these interactions and see their lives unfold together now. That is, yeah, incredibly special. I think a lot of people after having the first, if they're pregnant with a second, are afraid they won't be able to love them as much, And I think exactly what you're describing is it kind of compounds everything, right? You, you have this amazing love for your first and your second, and then seeing them together is just... Mm. Oh, yes. Yes. When it comes to kind of the feeling as a mother, it's beautiful. It's, it's... Yeah, it's... I mean, I don't know if we'll stop at two. Maybe, potentially, probably. Who knows? But it's, it's definitely very fulfilling, fulfilling as a parent to see them together, and to know that they will have each other's support because they're siblings. Yeah. Yeah. I think that leads us very nicely into our final question, which is from all of this, what would you say is your most brilliant moment? The brilliant moment. Wow. So I did have a think about the brilliant moment ahead of time. Um, and, mm, I think that it is from the first baby when she was... So I, I mentioned that she was, she, she is a sensitive one, and I remember there was this one time that I met up with a friend. we went to a park. One would think it's a simple park. You know, I think she was six or seven weeks old. But it was a new place, and then there was the trees rustling, and then there were dogs barking, and then there was the wind, and then there was all these little things that for us adults seem normal. But for a newborn, for her, it was overstimulating already. And she was crying, crying, crying, and I was, you know, trying to, trying to soothe her, not managing. And in my head this lasted for two hours. I think it was half an hour. Um, but, you know, finally managed to calm her down. And at that point in time, I said, "I need to write down a journal, a daily kind of log of what is happening in our lives, meaning to me and to baby, so I can remember this." Because when I was asking my parents how I was as a baby, if I was crying a lot... Because, I mean, I automatically thought maybe, maybe this is genetics. They said, "No, of course not." But I think we just forget these things. I'm, yeah, I'm sure we forget these things. So at that point in time, I decided I'm now going to write a little log of every day, what is happening with the sleeping, with the feeding, with the milestones, with the little laughs, and the little accomplishments and what we did and, and everything for, for the first year. And that's what I did for one year, and added pictures to that, and I now have a beautiful album with all these logs that I... You know, now I look back and, and I'm doing the same for, for baby boy now. It's a bit less consistent unfortunately because there's so much happening, but I try, um, to also do these logs just to, to remember how it was, how, how I was as a mom and how she was as a baby and how he is currently and was as a baby in the future. So I would call this quite a brilliant moment 'cause I now... We have this, uh, finally printed and, um, sitting on our shelf, and I even now go back and say, "You're eight months old." What's she up to when she was eight months old? Let me have a look. So it's something so beautiful, and I, I would say that this is a brilliant moment, a brilliant idea that I managed to kind of pull through and, and, um, have a, a beautiful keepsake now that I will give to her at some point in time, and him when I make his. You're right that there's, you know, when you're in it, you feel like, "I'm never gonna forget this." But once you're out on the other side- Mm you're like, "Oh, yeah, no, they slept fine." Oh, they didn't? You just kinda, you know. Or, like, when did you smile for the first time, or when, what were we doing on a daily basis? But it just kind of blurs, so that is a really beautiful gift. And kids love that, you know? Mine will always ask, "W- what was a funny thing I did when I was a baby?" Or what, I'm like, "Pff, uh, was that you or was that your sibling?" Or wait. So that's amazing. Yeah. I love that. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Mm. Thank you, um, so much, Katie, for taking the time to, to share your two really beautiful stories with us. Appreciate it. Oh, thank, thank you so much for having me. This has been a true pleasure. I, I really, really enjoyed talking about it, and I'm so happy to have this as well now, actually. I will also give it to, to my babies in the future to, to listen to. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Add a little QR code to the back of the book. They can listen- Yeah to those stories. I like it.