Bree: Two Hospital Births in Geneva, Building Your Support Team Before You Need It, a Husband’s Cancer Diagnosis in Pregnancy, and Finding Courage

Like, everything made sense, you know? It was just like, okay, that was meant to be.

Bree didn't feel an instant rush of love when her first daughter was born. She was too exhausted, too knocked out, too far outside her own body. But when her second daughter arrived after a pregnancy that tested everything, something big repaired itself. Today on Swiss Birth Stories, Bree from Geneva joins us to talk about sleepless months, a husband's cancer diagnosis in early pregnancy, spoiler alert, he's doing well now, and a healing experience giving birth in the very clinic where she was born. It's a story about facing your fears, resourcefulness, noticing the strengths within yourself, and what happens when you finally let yourself ask for help. Here's Bree Hi, Bree. Welcome to Swiss Birth Stories. We are super happy to have you here, and we'd love to start off with you introducing yourself and a little bit about you and your family Hi, uh, thank you very much for having me in this podcast. I'm so excited to share my story and discuss with you today. I'm Bree. I'm from Geneva. I'm one of the only, uh, Genevan that exists. I know it's very rare species. My family's composed of my husband and my two daughters. So the first one is five year and a half, and the little one, uh, is going to be 14 months next week. And my two cats, because they are part of my family, so, my first baby, is, an old diabetic cat and, uh, 13 years, and the second one, is a youngster of, uh, three years, Christina and I both are also cats', uh, parents, cat owners too. Yeah. So we are all in really, really good company here. Um, we would love to start the story off with you and your partner and how you knew it was the right time for you to start a family, or if that was even part of the- Mm-hmm part of the question. Uh, that's a good question, actually, because, I think I was always very conscious that, I never wanted to be absolutely a mom for the sake of being a mom. I knew that having kids, it's, it's intense. The thing is that with my husband, when, from the beginning, we start dating and we were, doing this long distance relationship, if you want, because he was in Lausanne and I was in Geneva. And, uh, and okay, it's not, it's not that, that far away, huh, seriously. But, but voila, we were never in the same town. Eventually, after a few years, of doing that, after his PhD, he, I finally managed to, to have him, staying with me in Geneva, and then that's when he started looking for work, and he find a job in Brussels. And I was just like, I was devastated, he was like, "Yeah, we wanna have kids." I was like, "Yeah, I wanna have kids," but not with someone who's, like, living in another country. That's not an option. Because, but he was like, "Yeah, but you know I have colleagues. Uh, they are doing that." And I was like, "Nope. No, no. I don't want, like, so- Um, we'll be together, uh, in the same town when this is happening. So he was for two years in Brussels, and he tried, to come back, to Geneva. That was difficult. But then he managed to, find another job in Germany. But they agree, because they really, really wanted him, they agree that he could, work remotely for, uh, three days a week. And he was taking the plane basically, and he was staying, the whole weekend and three days, and then he was coming back like two or three days there and coming. Like, I was like, "Okay, this is as close as we can, uh, as a normal family life." So I was like, "Okay." So we got married, and then we tried. So we got married in October, 2019, and then we tried to have a kid, and I got pregnant very soon, like three months after I was pregnant. So in February 2020 I got pregnant. And then I saw this COVID coming, so I was just like, "Ooh la la." Uh, he was like, "Yeah, but it's okay. Don't worry. I will be able to, to go back and forth." I was just like I, I knew I was pregnant, but I didn't want to say to him, uh, I was pregnant over the phone. Like, I wanted him to be in Geneva when I was, um wanted to say that. I was like, "You have to come back. You have to come back before, before they close the, the border. You have to come back." But he was like, "It's fine. I'm gonna go anyway." And I was like, "No, no, no," because I knew. I was like imagining me, uh, for months alone, uh, during my pregnancy in Geneva locked down in my apartment. So I was like, "You have to come. You have to come." So I so, I've insisted so much that, um, he came and actually one, uh, a half day after they closed the border between Germany and Switzerland. So I was just like, "Oh my God." Oh my gosh. And you have to say, like, at that time, I feel like we're speaking sometimes of a, like, a historical time capsule when we do, when we have pregnancies we talk about in COVID. Yeah. But at that time you could, you could see it coming because- Yeah, yeah, yeah all the other countries of the world were closing their borders- Yeah and we were not.

Yeah.

You were like- Yeah "This is gonna come, and I have a, a little soul developing inside of me that I would rather not have be completely isolated for." Oh my gosh- Yeah Bree, that is, that is crazy timing. Anyway, continue- Yeah on with your pregnancy story. So then we happened to be together. So he worked fully remotely, I was extremely happy then because I had my whole pregnancy, I had my, my husband with me. Would never happen for, um, yeah, six or seven years. So I was just like, "Oh my God, this is amazing. COVID, it's great for me." For me it was great because, uh, other- otherwise we were always separated., Just for people to picture, uh, because that's important for the rest of the story, is that I'm, I'm a very, very tall, woman. I'm one meter 79, and, I was always very thin. And during that first, uh, trimester, I had extreme nausea. I never vomited, but I wanted to puke basically, um, all the time. I didn't wanted to eat, uh, anything, so I started losing weight, a lot of weight. Uh, actually I lost five kilos. Uh, so I was 55 kilos, and I was not really ready for that because everyone told me, "You see, you're gonna be fat. You're gonna be so fat wearing..." Uh, my, my own mom took, uh, for her two pregnancies 27 kilos. So I was like- I was always thin my whole life, so I was just like, "Okay." I, I mentally was prepared to gain weight. And actually, I'm pregnant and I'm losing weight. I was like, "Uh-oh. This... What's going on?" And my, um, gynecology was like, "It's fine. It's okay. You're gonna take them after. Don't worry. It's, it's, it's the first trimester. Uh, don't worry about that." But the baby was developing normal, so it was like, okay. The only thing I wanted to eat was, uh, vinegar crisps and drinking soda. And I was fainting a lot of time. I always had a low, uh, pressure. Um, but, uh, yeah. But it was COVID, so it was okay. I was fainting on my couch, so it was okay. I was like- That's still pretty scary But actually, I noticed that, um, I was fainting if I was not going to the toilet. So it was directly linked to my, to my stomach. Um, and then basically, the rest of the pregnancy went okay. We started researching, where to give birth because I have a insurance that could, um, allow me to actually choose we checked all the option that we had in Geneva. So basically it was the birth center, the, HUG, so the, the university, hospital, or, private clinics. So you have three in Geneva that, where you can give birth. And, I really wanted to do, like, natural birth. I was, like, "Okay, my pregnancy is going well. I don't have any problems, so I want to" I was afraid of the medic- not the medical side, but I was like, if there is a problem, we're in a country where things are taken care of. The, actually the birth center is very close by the hospital, so it was like if there is something, we can always go there. And, my husband was extremely stressed out about that. So that was a total no-go for him to, to go to the birth center. But for me, what I was afraid of was- Uh, because, I'm a very sensitive and empathetic person, a bit too much, t- totally too much actually. I was afraid to have midwife or doctors I didn't know that was, that would, I don't want to say that, but like so contaminates my, you know, the way I am, and my focus or, uh, uh, voilà. Because I'm capturing all the emotions around, and if I feel tensions, uh, voilà. So I was very stressed about this, and I wanted to- So you, so you wanted to, in a way, find a situation or a birth context which would protect you because you know how open you are as a person. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And I think that that's very, very reasonable, and I think it's very amazing self-knowledge, right? And then you know, okay, it's a no-go. My husband's like, "No chance. He does not want that." Mm-hmm. So then how did you, how did you then make the next step in a way that would still protect yourself? So I started discussing, and try to find something that would look like, uh, this setting. So because I discussed with my, my gynecologist, and she told me, "Yeah, you know, basically, I'm not there for you the whole time you're in labor. I'm coming just at the end or if there is a problem." So I was like, okay, the person I trust and I know, uh, is not going to be there. So I was just like, "Okay, no. So I'm not going for, for that." Um, and then in the HUG, uh, I discussed with moms, and they were telling me that basically, um, if you s- like, a normal stay, you will, um, you will be with 15 different people over your stay. So it was just like, this is really a lot of people to get to know. So I start discussing, with this birth center, and they were telling me, "Okay, there is also this alternative in the HUG," so the, the hospital, which is called the Accompagnement Global, where you can have this group of midwife, so, uh, like in the birth center, that you get to know, they do everything from start, until the end. They give you the birth, preparation courses. If you go on emergency they will be called. If you just arrive at the hospital and you say, "I'm from this program," they will come. They will there is always minimum one person from that, uh, that group that is in the hospital. Um, and then also at the postpartum, they will be there for you. So it's, uh, they, they organize... Well, it was during COVID, so they organized less. I, I could attend only one. But, normally every month, they meet, you get to know them. And then they also invite all the moms that are in the program, so you're surrounded by all these, women who are in the same kind of spirit, if you want. I was like, "Okay, that's good." So in... Well, that was reassuring my, uh, my husband that we're in the hospital, like the most advanced hospital. If there is a problem, there is ICU, blah, blah, blah. And for myself, I had this, "Okay, I'm gonna be with one of those 10 person for sure, and that was our compromise that we found with my husband.

You touched on a bit about how the pregnancy was. Is there anything else that stood out about, about the pregnancy, particularly in the end?

I had during almost my whole pregnancy this, Braxton Hicks contractions. But extreme, a bit extreme actually. And my gynecologist told me that, very tall and thin women that was very common. So I had this contraction f- from, I think, starts week 24, 25, something like that, I already started having them. And then it was intensifying, uh, to the point that I took one week of holiday. I was at 32 weeks, with my friends. We went to the south of France, and it was nonstop. I was just like, "Wow, wow, wow." I don't want to give birth in the south of France. So when I get back, um, I discussed with my gynecologist and she told me, "Yeah, how many per day do you have?" I was like, "Yeah, way over 20." And she was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You stop working now. Okay? We don't want to have a baby now, so you..." So I stopped working, uh, and I was just resting because even just walking would give me contractions. I didn't even needed to actually, uh, you know, do stairs or even, like, just walking was giving me con- contraction. I mean, it was okay. I, I felt fine. And my, cervix was not open, so we're not stressed out. But she was like, "We don't give it a chance." So now it don't do anything, okay? You just rest, you, voilà. You take your time, you go easy.

So how did you know then when labor was starting if you're so used to having all these contractions all the

time? Yeah. I gave birth, um, when I was 40 weeks and four days. So it started after my due date. And I was just doing nothing, and I was just having these contractions. So I was like, "Okay, I guess that's, that's coming." Uh, because it was, yeah, it was coming, if I was resting it was, it didn't go away with bath, with rest, with, uh, changing position or something like that. So I was like, "Okay, I th- I think it's coming." So I started really having more contractions, On a Wednesday, and I gave birth on the Friday, so it was very long labor for me. I was having this contraction at home. My, my husband, was really into it. He was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna help you." He knew we trained for all these techniques, so he can massage me or help me with some position, da, da, da. In the end, I was like, "Don't touch me. I'm gonna do it alone." The poor him, he was very frustrated, uh, because, I was just like, "No, I want to be in my bubble. Just let me in." Uh, but that was it. So it was intensifying, intensifying, intensifying to the point that I had contraction every five minute. So I was like, "Okay, I think it's time to go." It's like one day and a half I have these contractions, or more actually. Um, yeah, it was more. It was two days I had contraction. Uh, so it was 3:00 in the morning. We took the cab to go to the, to the hospital, and because it was COVID, they told my husband, "You cannot enter yet. Um, you have to wait, uh, for her to see if she's admitted." And so they checked me, and they told me, "You're not open." I was like, "It's two days I have contraction. Every five minutes I have it, and you told me, like, I'm not in labor?" So they were like, "No, sorry." I was like, "What is happening?" So frustrating. Um, and so they told my husband, "Okay, we're not s- we'll see. Uh, if in one hour she's not yet, uh, nothing is happening, uh, maybe you'll go home." I was like, "Oh my God." And so they told him, "Okay, you can hide in the cafeteria. There is no one there, so we so you can go and sleep there. And if something is happening, we'll fetch you." So they were nice enough. So we, I stayed in this emergency room kind of. Um, in between contraction, they give me a PCR test. Always nice. And one hour later, I started dilating. I was like, "Oh my God." So we went up. I wanted a, what they called a une salle nature so, like, this kind of room when you can have, you know, um... I'm not sure they had, um, a swimming pool but, yeah, a swimming pool normally and then this thing to hang on and all this kind of stuff. And when I arrived, they told me, "Uh, I'm sorry, it's full. It's totally fully booked. Um, we only have a normal room." So I was like, "Okay." So I set up in this n- normal room, and the room next to me, there is a lady who is actually giving birth, and she started cr- like screaming like someone was, like, excruciating her. And I was, like, so afraid for like... Okay, my husband was like, "Okay, let's put some music." We put the music with the highest volume. I could still hear her. And the midwife that was with me was the only midwife which, which, uh, whom I didn't really connect. She was like... I was like, "Okay, mm." And that was the one who took care of me, and she start... Well, I was like, "Okay, well, that's karma." Like... And she, so I was like, "Okay." Um, I started complaining about the noise sometime, uh, somehow, uh, saying a comment. And she was like, "You know, um, everyone is like, has their own right to, to give birth, so that's it." I was just like, "You should be here for me. I'm stressing out because I'm gonna be in that stage, like, in a few hours." I mean, there's, there's a way to say that, and there's a way- Yeah to not say that, and maybe that poor midwife was at the end of a 12-hour shift or something. Yeah, yeah. That is not the way to say that. I was like, "Just be with me and just say, like, 'I'm sorry,' or whatever. Like, or maybe you not, like, it's fine, she's taking care of." I don't know, like, just reassure me. Something like that. You know, I felt in my body that I was like, "Argh." So I was like, how am I going to, like, let go and, you know, disconnect and, well, uh, be in my bubble with this high contractions if I'm having someone, like, next to me like, "Ah." I was like, "Okay, how can I relax?" At that time another, um, midwife enter, and she's I think she saw my face. She was like, "Uh, do you like bath?" I was like, "Yes, yes." She was like, "Okay, let's go to the prenatal, um, uh, room or whatever." And they had this, this beautiful bath. So they put me in this room that was, all purple with candles and flowers. I was just like, "Oh my God, this is such relief." So I took this bath over there. Um, I think I stayed, like, three hours in it. At some point I was just kind of freezing, and then they checked me, and I was, dilated by, at five or six, something like that. So I went, uh, back to the room. The lady had given birth. So it was quiet. And then it started really getting, like, hard, hard, hard. I had put in my birth plan that I wanted to try as much as possible without, peridurale. Um, how do you say, like- Epidural. Epidural. Uh, and, uh, but I was not, like, completely closed to... I was like, "Okay, if at some point it's just too much, I'm just gonna ask for it." And I had arrived to this point where I was... It was two day and a half that I was having contraction without eating. I was just shaking. I couldn't... Everything, well, yeah, I was really bad. So I asked for the epidural, and between when I asked it and when I got it, because it was full, uh, it elapsed something like one hour and a half almost.

And that wait time between when you've decided you want it- Yeah.

It's, it's so long

so, it feels long anyway, and an hour and- Yeah

a

half is actually long.

Yeah. So I think when he came I was, like, at seven, something like that. And every time I had a contraction, in fact, in between contraction, I was freezing. So that only, that's the only time when my husband was... I was asking him something, so he was putting my jumper on me. And then when I had contraction, I was like, "Remove it, remove it, remove it." And he was, like, putting on me and then remove it, remove it, because I was so... Yeah, I was just shaking. Any position was bad. I was, I wanted to, to, to be s- kind of standing, but I didn't have any force anymore, so I was kind of almost falling. I went... It w- it was a disaster. Um, and then they put me the epidural, and it was such a rel- a relief. I think I even- kind of, sort of slept, for I don't know how many minutes, seriously, I was out of my body really. But I've this amazing tip that was given by some of the midwife, is that she told us you have to put your dictaphone, with your cellphone. Just, just put the record and put the cellphone next to you when you start having the, uh, really to have to push, and just let it record everything for, like, one hour until voilà. So, um, at some point I was like, "Okay, I'm feeling something." They were like, "Ah, it's okay." I was like, "I'm feeling something." And they really dosed correctly the epidural, so that was great. I could really feel the contraction but not the pain, so that was, that was amazing. So we put the record on, I was just so exhausted that I started I t- I remember I told myself- You want this to be over, so you j- you just give everything. You g- now you give everything. You have not done seven years of Pilates for nothing, okay? You give everything. And in three push she was out. "And-"

For a first-time baby?

Yeah. Um, yeah, actually it, it lasts something like three minutes and a half. I was just, just determined. I was just like, "I want this to be over." That's

it. That's over. And you were recording, you were audio recording?

Yeah. Yeah. So we have the recording of all of that and the first hour of my baby. Oh, her first cry. It's, it's

amazing.

Yeah, first cry and, and everything. That's really the best tip, because I was so exhausted. I couldn't remember anything, seriously. I had this kind of blackout. And even my husband, he told me like, "I look at you when you were pushing, and you looked like an animal. Like, you, you were not yourself. You were just, like, outside somewhere," but you were completely... And, uh, and even myself, I don't, I don't remember anything. And so they put me the baby on and that, but seriously, I was like, like in, in a, like I was shocked. Like, I was just like, didn't understand anything. And so that's why this recording was so precious to me, because when I, I listened to it, actually I cried because I was so emotional because I could have this record. And for example, the, the midwife, she explained to me everything that I had, like the tear. Actually, I had a pretty big tear. Um, I think type three, something like that. And she, um, and she explained me how many, uh, how many pumps she, she was doing. And, uh, you could hear all this sound. It was very loud actually, because the baby was like, "Wah, wah, wah" all the time. There was this beep, beep, beep. I don't remember anything of that. That's very interesting to, to see that, that from an external point of view if you want to say. Um, and it's not as harsh as a video, because video, like, images can be a bit harsh, huh? So, um, so just the sound was... It's very, yeah, it's, it, I think it's very precious tip that I give, and I, I did that also for my second pregnancy. I've never heard that before. Yeah. And Christina, as a, as a doula, that's something I would never think to put out there as a suggestion. Like, "Would you like this to happen?" And I think it sounds amazing. I agree with you. The image can be, um, it can be quite a lot. Like, I see- Mm agree, like having both, having so many senses involved, and when you're just listening, as someone who quite likes podcasts And puts out a podcast out there, I think that the, like, the audio is so powerful. Um, that's really interesting, Bree. I'm gonna remember that. That's cool. Yeah. Well, I give- And then, so, so then you've given birth to your daughter, and take us into the room. What are, what are you experiencing? You're being stitched, as you're saying. Yeah. So they're being clear with what's happened to you in terms of a birth injury. Um, how is the getting to know your daughter going? I don't want to say, like, it was not love at first sight, because I was just so knocked out. I was just like, I don't remember any feeling of, um, of pain. The, the, the only remember that I have is this exhaustion, actually. So I couldn't do anything. Like, I was just numb, in a sense. But, then I was put in this room with another lady who had a C-section, they were always checking on her. So I was constantly waking up, and the baby was crying a lot. She was actually, kind of yelling at her baby. She was like, "Stop, Deborah. Stop yelling, Deborah. This is enough, Deborah." And I was like, your baby is like 12 hours old. How can you s- do that? And she was snoring, I was like, "I want to get out of this place as-" This is the worst kind of bed- like, a mate to have in your room with you Yeah This is not how you're gonna be feeling better after a two-day-long labor, and then you're put into a room- Mm-hmm with that situation. Oh my gosh, Bree. Oh. You must have been aching to get home. Yeah, yeah. And she was... When she was not asleep and... or someone was not there, she was on the phone putting the,, she was putting the speaker on. I was just like, "Oh my gosh." I asked the midwife. I was like, "What is the minimum time I can stay there?" And they say, "48 hours." Okay, I counted. I was like, 8:48, I went out. I called my, my husband. "You're gonna come. I'm getting out of it." And It was so, so peaceful at my place. I felt really relieved, and I have this, midwife. I did some hypnobirthing with her as well, uh, and she was amazing. She was amazing. She was so reassuring. I remember after the, I think it was one week, something like that, I started crying. I think it was the baby blues. Like, I was crying all the time. She gave me this image that I really loved. She said, like, "Okay, you give birth, but now it's when you have the impression that actually you were, um, rolled over by a truck." Like, this is... So I was like, "This is exactly that." Everything was aching. Because for the first, the first days, I wa- nothing was aching. I think I was so, with a lot of medication and stuff like that, and I was still so exhausted. But then I started functioning again. Everything was aching. Like, I was really, um... So yeah. But she was like, "This is normal, okay? If it's, if it's longer, then we'll see. But, uh, now it's, well, uh, your, your hormone adjusting. It's gonna be fine. You're gonna be fine. Your baby's gonna be fine." Um, so yeah, that was a bit, uh, rough, but she, she was extremely reassuring, so I was happy about that.

That's so... Makes such a big difference who you've got-

Totally

there, and that, you know, Wochenbett, if it's somebody who can really reassure you or, how did breastfeeding go?

it started well. It was painful, huh? I mean, I'm not gonna lie. Uh, it was painful, but it went on pretty okay. Except that af- after the first month, My, my daughter, she started having, I don't know how you say that in, in English, like a It's, uh, it's so it's a yeast infection that can happen. Exactly. Yeah. And so, um, it started being difficult. Uh, I, I was never, um, I was never this lady who had, you know, like, constantly, uh, milk getting out. Actually, my, my duct were very much always blocking. Uh, from the start on, that was always like that. So because it was painful- It started being always blocked, and I had kind of a mastitis developing. I mean, it started being pretty bad. So because it was close to Christmas, no one was available, of course, so I had to go to, uh, HUG in the unit for, um, for the breast. But actually, I think most people going there are actually ladies with breast cancer, so it was kind of really weird atmosphere, to be there with my baby and everyone looking at me. And I was like, "Okay, what am I doing here?" And so for 20 minutes, the lady, she pressed my breast to get the milk out because it was so blocked. And she was like, "As long as it's yellow, it mean it's, it's old milk, so we need to continue." I'm like, "Oh, my God." But at least I got this, the technique so then every time it was blocked again, I could relieve myself. So th- that was not a pleasant experience, but at least, um, then I knew how to do it. And, uh, so we got out of this muguet, this yeast infection, and then after it was always good. Um, my daughter loved... I mean, I was her pacifier literally, and it was extremely difficult for her to let me. She was doing this cluster feeding forever. I've read books, entire huge books because she was feeding for so long time. I watched entire series on Netflix during breastfeeding. That was crazy because compared to my second pregnancy, that never happened. I never... I still have this book I never finished. So she was doing this extremely long and peaceful, uh, feeding, like very slow and, uh, and nice. So, well, the only problem is that she was not letting go, so, um, sleeping was a great, great, great problem for us. She's like me. She's very sensitive, and so everything that was slightly deviating from her routine or s- uh, or experience that she never had before would trigger extreme, um, cry at night. for a long time. Like, typically between 2:00 and 3:00 o'clock, and she would cry and cry and cry, but like, like crazy, and the only thing that would calm her down would do squats with her. So whether... So my husband, uh, we call her Coach because, you know, s- she was like a coach. Like, you want to stop? You want to sit? And then, "No, go again." Keep

going, or I will cry. That's good motivation. That, that'll do it.

And that's when I had to start, to go to work again, that's when it started getting extremely stressful for me because in Geneva, It's very difficult to find,, either a place in kita, kindergarten, or even to have a nanny even though you pay, like, uh, 4,000 bucks a month, you still have waiting lists. It's pretty crazy, so I was extremely stressed out to find out how, how I'm gonna start working and having someone taking care of my kid. We ended up having a share nanny with friends of ours who were in exactly the same posi- the same position. So, we had this share nanny. She was extremely nice. But my daughter being my daughter, not accepting the bottle, the pacifier, nothing. So, she was not drinking milk during the day. She was five months and a half. And so she was drinking at night. So I was working during the day, pumping, and she was basically waking up every hour to feed. So she's, voilà, she really needs a lot of reassurance at night. So that was the start of- This kind of I don't know if we can qualify that as postpartum depression because I was not, diagnosed or anything. But I started losing weight, um, to the point that I was 52 kilos. so for my height is, it was very low, weight. And everyone was telling me, "Oh, you look so, so pale. You, you don't look good." And I was like, "Yeah, I know, but I don't know how to solve it." I had hypervigilance. I was waking up. Even though she was sleeping, I was waking up because I was used to be waking up every 45 minutes that I couldn't sleep more than 45 minutes in a row. So I went. I was like, "Okay, I need to go to see a doctor or do something because it's, it's, it's not sustainable." He checked everything. We did all the blood tests, all the tests we could do. The thyroid was fine. Everything was fine. I usually had a iron problem, and my iron was fine. Like, okay, s- he was like, "I don't know an- like, what else we can do except just stop breastfeeding." And I was just like, No, I don't want to just stop breastfeeding. Maybe I can try to lower a bit to see if it's really that, the problem. If it's, that's the only thing that's causing me to lose weight and be in that low energy and da, da, da, then just by lowering it, it should get better." So I start doing that, and it didn't get better. So I was like, "Okay, that's not the breastfeeding per se." And so I went to my gynecologist and she was like, "I don't know how t- really to help you. and what really- helped me actually. It's when it went so bad that I got mastitis or, uh, not mastitis, but I had, uh, engorgement. So it was every day, and I was just like, "It's more than a year that I'm breastfeeding. Like, how come I have this?" Like, and I knew all the techniques. So at some point I went to the, um, gynecological emergency in HUG. And I told them, I was like, "Okay, I have that constantly. It's not helping." I told them everything I was doing. Like, okay, hot shower, the cabbage, the argile. All the, all of this. I tried like the, the technique with the, with the glass and the hot water, da, da, da. And they were like, "Are you a lactation consultant or something like that? Because, like, I don't have anything to propose you." And then at some point- Just

desperate. Yeah.

Just

like- Lots of time to read while my child does nothing

but breastfeed.

Exactly.

I forgot to mention that, something that helped me was to reach out to La Leche League because I was extremely stressed about how much I should pump. And all of this, stressed me out because I had no clue how much my daughter was, feeding. And she, she told me something. She was like, "Don't worry, she's not a very, very small baby. She knows how to latch and everything, she will find out. Trust her. She worked well then at night. But, um, so she was really reassuring me, and she helped me to set up for work so that the transition went okay. And so, yeah, so I was with this lady at the hospital, and she, she told me, "Okay, you've tried everything that is linked to properly, like the duct that is blocked by, physically blocked." And she told me like, "But how are you sleeping? How are you... Are you feeling okay?" And like, I started crying. Like, I crumbled in her office. And she was like, "Okay, stay here five minutes, okay? I'm gonna come back." And she went back with the psychologist, and I discussed with the psychologist. And she was like, "I think you're just exhausted. You just need to stop working and properly sleep and having a therapy." And so she addressed me to, a center,, in Geneva that's called Centre Perinatal, which is like a center who has psychologists but specialized for parenting, and they also have midwives, they have pediatricians. It's center with everything around kids and parents. And so I started this therapy with this, with this psychologist, and she really helped me putting in perspective, things because I was stressed about, for example, because my weight was such a stress for me that I started transferring this to my kid, so I was extremely controlling the intake she had. And I was just stressed out because, oh, she didn't had any vegetable today or she didn't had any na-na-na. So I was not right. I was stressed about everything. That really, really helped me out. Um, so little by little, I started being helped with this psychologist. Then, for example, something that's... I started researching help basically, like psychological help, because I saw that basically my body was fine. It's just me who needed to settle and have more, uh, confidence somehow. So I reached out to, a program, called Fabulous au Foyers, which was created by a French lady who had twins and who got totally burnt out, and now she has this community for self-development for moms, to actually just one step at a time just get through the day. And that was amazing what it did for me, and I also get to know, a lot of moms who are now my friends. Who are in the same, um, yeah, same story of, yeah, I don't want to, to just be this yelling mom, exhausted mom. I want to do better with my life and with my family, and I deserve a better life seriously than just yelling and being constantly exhausted. Um- Was

this group in person? Were you allowed to gather at this point yet, or was it online?

Uh, yes. Yes, because it was in 2022, yeah, uh, that I started it. So that was, um, that was helping me. Also something that caused me to really stress me out, and that's important for the rest of the story, is that, when my daughter was one, I lost a friend of ours. He was 39 years old, and he had cancer, and they had a baby three months after us. So we were pregnant together and, uh, but, that was the husband who died. That affected me so much, because I could see myself, and I was... Because I'm so empathetic also, that, that was the problem, is that I was just imagining myself, "Okay, if I'm losing my husband now, I would be a widow with this little kid." That was, uh, that was so much. That was really, really hard. But I had this psychologist and I could go through, and that helped me out. So we- I started building all this knowledge. I also had a, a great, uh, conference that is every year that's... It's called Transforming Toddlerhood. It's in the US. You can attend for free. It's every year. It's, done by, um, a specialist in toddlerhood, and they have great experts, talking, like Dan Siegel, for example, or, Dr. Shefali. If you're into, uh, child psychology, they are pretty famous. And this conference really helped me also to calm down. There was, for example, this specialist about food, toddler food, and she was like, "This is totally okay if your kid is not eating vegetable once a day, okay? You're gonna survive this." And so all of these little s- stones, if I can, um, pave my way to, to get better. So I started really feeling better, and my, child really properly slept after two. So for two years we were sleep-deprived. And, so I started be myself again, like, finding my place. At work it was also, uh, yeah, it was g- going better as well. Um, yeah, I forgot to mention that actually I changed work during my maternity leave. Applied during my pregnancy, and actually the first day I went back to work was actually my new work, so I had not... I, I knew nothing about it, and I was... I think that contributed as well, uh, to, to my, uh, to my depression, is that I was, uh, I was so stressed out because I had to learn new things at the same time that I was learning to be a mother and learning everything and,

and- And sleep-deprived

sleep-deprived. One of the thing that I did also is I, I contacted my, uh, our... At work, we had a occupational therapist, and I contacted her because I felt this guilt that I was not productive at work. And she told me something. She was a single mom. She also breastfeed her kid for two years, so she knew exactly what I went through, and she told me, Is anyone complaining about your work?" I was like, "Actually, no." Is anyone telling you that actually you work, that it, that, they're, they're happy about you in the team?" She was like, "Yeah, actually, they are really relieved I came, and that, that I'm doing the..." She was like, so stop this guilt now. You are sleep-deprived. You cannot give 100% if you, if you only have 50% in yourself. So stop it. It's never gonna la- It's not gonna last forever. And just accept that now it's, it's like that, and when you can go, you can do more, you will do more." But, well, I love also this, there is a saying, like the trees don't bloom the whole year. So don't, don't ask yourself to do the same, okay? You're gonna bloom at some point, but now it's winter. It's fine. It's okay. So I started relaxing and being okay and also trusting the process. But I was always with this fear, you know, that I was- because we wanted to have two kids with my husband from the start. We were saying that was our plan, and I was just like, "Yep, you know, I'm fine with one. That's good for the planet." I was also convincing myself like, "I'm okay. At least I can take care of my kid, and she has my full attention, and she's gonna grow up like, an amazing, uh, person so I was really trying to convince myself that it's great to have one kid, and that's it. I still think it's great to have one kid, huh? But, um, my husband was like, "Yeah, I don't want to put you any pressure, but, you know, we said we want to have two kids, and now she's old enough and we're sleeping well, and na, na, na." And I was like, "No, I went through this pregnancy that was so hell, that was difficult, and I was sleep-deprived for two years." So I was like, "Oh my gosh, no, I'm not putting myself into it again. I don't want to go that, that rabbit hole ever again." And then at some point, I had a massive, period. My period didn't came for, like, more than 30 days, which was extremely unusual for me. And I started freaking out. I was like, "Okay, maybe I'm really pregnant." I had zero symptoms and everything, but I was just like, "Okay, this is way too long." So I told my husband, "Okay, we're gonna have a talk now. I don't want to do a t- pregnancy test before 'cause I don't want to be, um, biased by the result of this test. So, uh, we're gonna have a serious conversation." And, my husband is, engineer, so he's very, organized in his head. And, and he was like, "Okay, so what were the conditions that made you feel so bad, actually?" And I realized that, the conditions were I started a new job, it was COVID, so we couldn't... hire more help because it was very difficult. both family lives in the region, but we couldn't see them at that time because, my in-laws, they were over 65, so we were afraid that we would give them COVID, so we didn't see them, or very little. My mom, she's working with elderly people, she had extremely fragile, um, patients, so we didn't want to contaminated her. My, uh, brother is working in kindergarten, also we didn't want to be with him because he could contaminated us, and well, voilà. So basically, we were without family support even though we're both from the region. Ah, yeah, my employer change their, their, uh, policies, and I got the policy, uh, increased, uh, the maternal leave, and I had, um, I had a high, a longer break. So, and we didn't live in Geneva anymore. We lived in France, and, so in France it's less problematic to find, childcare. So he was like, "Okay, so basically any of these blockers are not there anymore." So it's only you and your fear. And I was just like, "Yeah, actually." So I was like, "Do I want to have regrets just because I'm not able to face my fear?" And now I'm equipped. I have all these groups. I have all this support. Um, well, my midwife, this, uh, this group of moms, everything that, that I've put to actually get up. So I was like, "Okay, no, I need courage, and we're gonna do it, and it's gonna be fine." And my daughter is old enough to understand, and it's not going... That was also a fear of mine, is that, during my child- not my childhood, but really when my brother, little brother became, um, also got teenager, it was extremely difficult. And still until now, we're not very close. Uh, we had this v- very intense fight. So I was really afraid. Because I was the older sister, and I was kind of afraid, okay, if I have a little boy that is going to repeat the story again and be in this trauma of reviving and, well... So I was afraid of a lot of different things. And I was like, "Okay, no, you, you're courageous, and you're gonna do it, and everything's gonna be fine because now you have the resources and, you can, you know you have to ask for help, and you're gonna as- ask for help." So we decided to try, and two months later, I was pregnant again. So I was like, "Oh, my God." It was even, uh, I was ready, that it took longer because I was older, but actually, it went even faster than first one, so I was, I was really surprised. And, yeah, concerning my weight, I never fully gained back the weight I had before my first pregnancy. So I was 55 kilos. Uh, when I got pregnant the second time, I was like, "Okay." But my body had decided that it's still okay, so I'm gonna go with th- that. But I kept in mind, okay, if I'm gonna have this nausea or whatever, I cannot do like the first time because I cannot go down, more. So I forced myself. I had this extreme... It was even stronger than the first pregnancy, the symptoms. I even thought at some point that I had twins because they were so s- so much stronger than during the f- the first pregnancy. I was like, "No, I have to eat whatever it takes. Even though I want to vomit anyway, so let's just eat something." So I decided that, I'm gonna eat. And, I was very happy. I didn't lose any weight during the first, trimester, so I was like, "Okay, I'm exactly at the same place, than my first one." So it was, I was relieved somehow. And so voilà. So it's lucky you found some safe foods, and then you were basically then at the same weight that you had been for your whole first pregnancy. Yeah. So when I was two months pregnant, my husband started feeling unwell. But it was October, so we're like... He was like, "No, it's fine. Uh, I have the flu. I have COVID. I have like anything like that." And then it went worse and worse and worse to the point that one morning he couldn't wake up, and he was yellow. So I was like, "Whoa. Uh, okay, that's emergency straightaway." we found out he had a internal hemorrhage- in his stomach. They were able to close, to close it after, the same day, but he had lost, like, half his blood already. So he stayed 10 days in the hospital. During these 10 days, they did It was actually an, an ulcer, and they did a biopsy to check what it, why this ulcer, uh, started bleeding, actually. And we got the diagnosis that actually it was cancer So, uh, we're like, "Oh my gosh." Like, uh, and I had already the- How, how

far, how far are you here in your pregnancy?

Two months. So new- n- no one knew, and also around us we had a lot of people who had a miscarriage, so we're like, "Okay, we're gonna wait." And before he got this, this hemorrhage, he was helping me 100%, like, because at night it was... Because I think because of the, the tiredness of the day, the symptoms were really exacerbating. Every time I was bending I was, I was like, "Oh." I was about to faint and stuff like that, so it was really, really harsh. And so he was helping me so much. He was taking my first one to school every day. He was fetching her every night. He was helping with, putting her to bed, and la, la, la. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, now he's in the hospital. How am I going to do that?" I was... It was, frightening. And so I told my husband, "We have to say to our family because I can just not manage it." So we had to announce it. Um, it felt like so weird because like everyone was also worried for my husband, but in the same times we're like, it was like, "Y- yay, I'm pregnant." It was really feeling weird, like, like it was not the right time, not the right place. Um, and so, uh, we had this... I even started to think, because we didn't know, uh, the stage, when they did the, this biopsy, we didn't know if it was really advanced, how much, the, yeah, um, the grade of the, of the, of the cancer. So I was just thinking like, "Should I, should I even think of abort?" Because if he's in final stage, like I, I don't want to have a baby to carry. Like I want to help him and to be with him and take care of my eldest. And so we had all of this feeling but, the, basically the, the, the day, my husband told me about it, the day after I was like, "Okay, I cannot- I cannot go down this, this rabbit hole again. Like, there is zero, zero chance I'm going to be depressed. There is zero chance I'm going to be burned out. I need to thrive because I, I have to do this for my daughter and for my husband. They need me to be the support of the family now, so I... First thing I took, I told everyone in my office, in my unit, I told them straight away. I didn't say that I was pregnant, but I, I say that my husband has cancer and so they were extremely supportive. Then first thing first, I booked an appointment with my, midwife, and I did a hypno- hypnose, with her, a session with her to help. I contacted, um, my previous psychologist, in the Centre Perinatal, and they told me, "Ah," it was October, mid-October, and they told me, "Ah, we have a, we have a spot in January." I was like, "He has cancer now. I need now support." Like, I know this, this is going to, to be a long, a long journey, so let's book already for January. And in the meanwhile, I contacted a previous psychology that I had when I was, um, when I was 20 years old, something like that, and who was doing, um, how do you call it? Uh, this trauma with the eyes,

EMDR? EMDR.

EMD- yep,

EMDR.

So I contacted her, and I explained to her, and she told me she didn't have any, um, any spot, but she could take me, remote for here and there, like every time she had a little spot in her agenda. So I, I was with her. I did all the session with her until January with her, so I had support. But basically my pregnancy and, um, and my gynecologist, she was like, "Okay," so she knew my story and everything, so she was like, "Okay, so we're gonna see each other every month anyway, like she was extra care. Yeah, everyone was, like, super careful with me, and they were like, "We don't want you to be in depression," like, so we're, we'll put... Everyone was extremely reassuring. But I felt I felt discon- uh, not disconnected, but, uh, I was, like, not really taking care of my pregnancy somehow. Um, my husband got, his surgery in, uh, I think the last day of November and he stayed at the hospital for two weeks, and then after he stayed with his parents for one month, the whole month of December, basically. And that was very, very harsh for my daughter, because she couldn't understand. She was just like, "Well, it makes no sense," for her that Dad was out of hospital but couldn't be with us. So sh- she had extreme tantrums. She was biting. She was throwing things. She was yelling. Like, everything you can imagine. I was like, "Oh, I thought that was at two that they would do that," but actually no, it was, um, at 4:00, apparently. When he came back, she, she went normal again How, how did the surgery go? What were the results of his surgery? They were happy that the, the ulcer was low enough that they could keep part of the stomach, so he still had, still have now 20% of his stomach. Because at the first stage they feared that they would have to remove totally the stomach. But in the end he has a tiny stomach So, my daughter is always now making fun of him, and she's like, "Oh, you c- oh, you don't like this? Oh, I can take it because you have a tiny stomach anyway. I can eat it." So it went well. It went better than they planned, I mean, it's still extremely harsh. But the scan where basically the scans since on are clean and everything is fine. It's totally fine. It was extremely reassuring. And this is when it started to get reassuring, that's when actually we, I started focusing more on my pregnancy, and this is also how we started fighting like hell with my husband. And actually discussing with my psychologist, she told me like, "Yeah, it's very, very normal that when you have a shock, you have a something you need to hold, everything is holding together. And when the pressure is releasing, that's when you're, you're just dismantling basically." And also for my husband, I think it was different because he was always this extremely calm person. Never swearing, always super polite and gentle and everything. And with the surgery, he had no reserve, if you want. And so he started being in my shoes somehow, you know, when I was feeling so exhausted and I was yelling at my daughter And he was like, "You should not yell at her. She's just a, a small baby," la, la, la. And I was like, "Yeah, but I'm just so exhausted I cannot handle my emotion anymore. He was experiencing what I, what I experienced. So, I don't know if that help him, uh, being more empathetic with me. I don't know. I hope. It's starting being, uh, also a bit disturbing for me because he was the pillar, like the one who is always calm, who is like, "It's going to be okay." And he was like suddenly like me, more, you know, expressing and, uh So I think it was puzzling a bit also for my daughter. But, eventually we are adjusting. Um, and he also got help, psychologically, so I think that's what I Together we were helped. One of the thing that I thought was like, "I'm sure it exists someone in this world who had the same experience as me, who was pregnant and as her husband has a cancer." So I start looking. I was, listening to that podcast. That is similar to your podcast actually, but in French, and it's called Bliss. And it's very popular in France. And I found an episode with a lady who was pregnant while her husband had, leukemia, leukemia. And that was so much harder than what we went through and something that she said that really resonated with me is that you will be in different universe and communication is going to be a, an issue because you don't want to hurt the other one. You don't know how the other one is feeling, and so you don't want to overburden something. And that was something we experienced with my husband, is that I wanted to help him and he refused that I was helping him. So that was extremely difficult for me to accept, that he didn't want, me to help because he knew It was difficult physically for me, uh, and psychologically for me. And so he was like, "No, focus on your pregnancy." But I couldn't focus on my pregnancy, so I was- it was difficult to accept that. But I knew this could happen, so I was not surprised somehow. So that's why I value the podcast like you're doing, because I can imagine that if someone is going through something similar, they would try to research and maybe they're like, "Okay, that can happen, and it's normal, but, oh, no, it's okay. You can, you can survive it." But it's reassuring to, to know that you're not alone and, in

this-

Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not okay to have something like that blindside you. That just is horrible. But yes, you can be okay. You are very capable. And it's very oddly serendipitous that you had already called in the cavalry. Like, you already had supports built up, and then you get this terrible news and, and so you could really, aha, make sure everyone's there, and get as much support as you can. But it is, this is immeasurably difficult, and you've got a ba- you've got a four-year-old, you've got this, and then you also have this memory of this happening to your dear friend as well. Exactly. That this is, like, so terrifying. It must have felt like the whole universe was just saying, "Ah, you were afraid? You did all this work based on your fears? Here you go. Here's all your fears right there." Exactly. And that must have felt that the universe was just giving you a big middle finger. yeah, I had intense rage, I was really extremely angry at my husband, for example, because he was never really, not taking care of his health, he was just like, "Yeah, I have this discomfort, but I'll, I'm not going to the, to the doctor" and stuff like that. Oh, la, la. And I was just like, maybe we could have not have that. So I was enraged, uh, at some point, and then I, I felt- extremely guilty because when I started really having this pregnancy, and really being into my pregnancy, I was like, how come I was thinking of abort with this amazing baby that is there? So I had this immense guilt feeling that I never experienced before. So, uh, I had this rollercoaster of, of, uh, extreme emotions, And then you have this mountain to climb in front of you of- Mm labor and birth. So how did your, labor start with this baby, yeah. I was not working for, uh, I was working only 20% since December, so I gave birth in May. I was just working one day per week just to, to keep my sanity, basically to have something else to think about it. But really, I had this contraction, like the first one, like always contraction, contraction, contraction. And I was like, "Okay, I know about it." I was fed up. Like, uh, with my first one I was like, "Oh, it's fine. Take your time, baby Bella." With this one I was just like, week 37 I was just like, "I'm done. I'm done." I want to be... I want it to be out. I'm finished. You're ready. Go, go." So it was... I was not in the same state. A big fear that I had during this pregnancy that I didn't have with the first one is that I was constantly fearing I would, um, I would have a miscarriage, and I was having dreams of miscarriage or that something would go wrong or, uh, nightmares, I think. It was, it was pretty bad.

That kind of fits with what you were experiencing.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So not surprised, but voilà. I was not sleeping well. I was really unwell, at the end of this pregnancy. I was crying all the time, you know, like it was really bad. And so at 39 weeks, I remember extremely well, I developed close to my eyes a little, um, like it, it looked like a mole, if you want, but, like wine color. And you can have that during pregnancy. It's common. But it was very close from my eye, and it started growing, to the point that every time I was touching it, it was actually opening and, like, since it's so close from your eyes it was like, it's like massive amount of blood that is going out. So I had that, and I remember this morning, I wash my face, 39 oh my God, wash my face, and it's opening again. I'm full of blood. I was just like, "No." Start crying on my bathroom like, "This is so bad. I want this to end. This is shitty. Why am I pregnant again? Ah, la, la. W- why did I do all of this?" I was really, miserable. Uh, I tried to call, to have an appointment with a, mm, how you say, a dermatologist. No dermatologist available in Geneva whatsoever. The emergency, the, the dermatology emergency were like, "No, we're not open today." Da, da. I was just like, "Oh, my gosh. This is so bad." Um, and at noon, I, I don't know. I opened one of my, my drawers, something like that, and then I was like a bit of liquid. I was like, "Mm, that's weird." So I didn't know what it was. I was not sure, and I never had problem with my, um, uh, how do you say? Periné. I never peed myself

Water, yeah. Mm-hmm

Yeah. So it was very, it was very funny. So I was like, "Ah, maybe it's because now she's, uh, I could feel her. She was really, um, down." I was like, "Ugh, well, maybe that's because of that. I'm peeing myself a bit. I don't know. Or maybe it's the water. I don't know." And then so I called, I explained, and so they were like, "Ah, maybe it's because the head is on it, so you'll see. Just try to change position." So, um, I went to the toilet, I bent, and then I had a huge sploosh. I was like, "Okay, now I guess it's really water. I'm breaking." And this time I was like, it's not going to be like the first one, like for two days that I'm, I cannot eat, I cannot do anything." So first thing first, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna take a good shower, and then I'm, I'm gonna eat as much as possible things that I like." And then I called, my father-in-law, who gently said that, "Oh, yeah, I'm here, so in case you need to go, uh, to the clinic, uh, you can just go." And yeah, and had, I had chosen to go to, to the clinic where my gynecologist went, La Clinique des Grangettes, in Chene-Bougeries, because my gynecologist was there, and she such a lovely woman. I love her. So I decided to go there even though it's e- exactly the opposite where I live. Like, it's across the whole Canton Geneva, so I was a bit afraid of that, if it's during peak hour, you'll get voilà. But my gynecologist was like, "Oh, in case, you know, you are in labor, just call the, um, an ambulance. That's fine. They're gonna they're gonna pass and you're gonna come, so it's fine. Don't be worried about the traffic." I was like, "Okay, great." Um, but everything went super smoothly because it was 1:00, so no traffic. We went there super, uh, normal. And because I was positive to, uh- Group

B Strep

Yeah, exactly. They told me, "Okay, we have to, give you the antibiotics, before it's, uh, it's accelerating with the first one." And so they told me, If you want, we g- we're gonna put some oxytocin to make sure that, you're in labor in less than, than eight hours or otherwise it's problematic. I was like, "I'm not doing, I'm not trying, without epidural." Like, I'm done. With this pregnancy, I'm not doing the, any heroic thing." My heroic thing was to survive this period, so now I'm just in princess mode and everything is going to be okay. I don't want to suffer anymore. I want this to be done. So they were like, "Okay, so anyway, we're gonna do the epidural." So they, they put me the antibiotics. They put me in ex- very, very small dose of, uh, oxytocin and they were like, "Oh, it's going straightaway." You could see, like, my body was like, "Yay, again. We can do contractions." Yeah, it's, it was trained for so many weeks already. Your body, your body just needed that tiny little bit- Yeah of, a little bit of a kickstart. Yeah, yeah. It was- And, uh, your epidural was placed. It was a good one again. Yeah. But, uh, the thing is that the, uh, funny thing is that the anesthesiologist didn't check my height. And so she dose it. She, she dosed it and, uh, she put it like a normal, like 15, she told me 15 units. And then she checked and she was like, "Oh, actually, I didn't saw that you were so high, so actually I should have put you 20 units instead of 15." And I was like, "Well, it's okay. I can still, it's still, uh..." She was like, "Oh, you, you just tell me, For the next dose you just tell me and, and, and it's going to be fine." So I was like, "Okay." Well, it was still manageable, so I was like, "It's fine." At that point they say, "Oh, we're not gonna check if you're in labor or not. Uh, we'll just wait." So we had this, um, epidural, uh, this, this oti- oxytocin. And I was like, "Yeah, it's manageable. I can feel it, but it's, it's very mild, uh, pain." So it was, it was okay. So my husband say, "Okay, I'm very tired. I'm going to do a nap." I was like, "Yeah, sure. Do a nap, whatever." I was, like, listening to music, was super, super chill. And then one hour and a half later, they were like, "Okay, uh, maybe we're gonna just go to pee so your bladder is, is, i- is out. We're gonna check, uh, and we're gonna adjust your, um, epidural after that. I wanna check how much you're dilated and then we're gonna give you a second dose." I was like, "Okay, sure." I went to the bathroom- And then I was like, I need to poop. I need to poop." And then I saw blood, and I was just like, Damn, that's not poop. It's now. It's happening." So I start yelling at, uh... I was like, to my husband like, "Come, come. It's now. Bring the, the gynecologist." I was like, you know, uh, uh, I held as much as I could, like, to... I don't know how you... Like, this kind of stick, like, uh, that they give you to, to hang on the, the, the-

The medication drip

that's on there the medication. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I was, I was on it like-

And that thing's on wheels.

Yeah, yeah, it's on wheels. A dangerous

thing to hold on to.

So I was, so I, I was, I was like- And so, and you have an epidural, but a very mild one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not- So you're walking, but you're not the most stable. Yeah, yeah. Like, you're not... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They gave me the- Oh my gosh. So I was like, I try, I was like, "I need to go to the bed because it's happening." so I think I had, like, two, two contractions on the other, and I'm on the bed. And my gynecologist, she had read the, um... Even though she was not there at the first pregnancy, but she had read that in three push, the first one was out. So she was like, "Okay, yeah, yeah." "Go, go, go." And I remember she tapped on my shoulder, and she was like, "She's here. It's gonna be fine. You're gonna go. You're gonna get that girl out." And so that put me in my mode. Like, the first pregnancy when I was like, "Okay, I need to get her out," because I was like, "Brie, your, epidural is very low doses." I was at the end of the epidural, actually. I didn't have almost any, any effect at that point. And I was this incredible pain. I was like, "Oh my God." And I, I knew they didn't have the time to give me another, another shot. So I was like, "You have to get this baby out, otherwise you're gonna suffer like hell." So I, I, that put me again in this mood like, "Get it out." And she got out in one push. So I beat my own record. Amazing, and that was a good record. And I didn't tear anything. Wow, that was gonna be my follow-up question actually. Yeah. That, no tears. No. One push. Yeah. Previous third degree tear. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I was like, "Whoa." I was like- And you had the audio running, so you had- Exactly the audio in the background. That must be wild- Yeah to listen to. Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. And then how... Yeah, so baby's here. Yeah, and s- The, what, uh, you, you had a, a sort of, not, you didn't feel super connected to your first baby- Yeah from the, like, uh, the very beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That took time. H- uh, was it the same for you this time, or was it a different experience? No, and this time it was just amazing. I was just like, "Oh, my gosh." It kind of repaired everything I went through this pregnancy. It was just like, "Oh, my gosh, that was so worth it." She was just perfect. I was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is... Okay." It was, uh, we have done it at some point, it ha- it made sense. Like, everything made sense, you know? It was just like, okay, that was meant to be. I'm sorry, I'm not going to cry. I'm not going to cry. But I was like, oh, my God, it's repairing all this kind of thing that I was like, We had to go through this depression. We had to go through this fear to actually get her. And that was a little girl, so that was also my fear. And I was like, no, now we have two girls. Um, so I'm not going to repeat my history. Everything is a blank page. Um, yeah, I was, it was good.

And your family is your family. Yeah. It's your story to craft. Yeah, exactly. And this was a little gift from the universe of aha- Yeah all your fears that I slapped in your face- here's one little gift for you. Exactly. And she's the most perfect little thing. Oh, so- Yeah wonderful for you. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it was, uh, it was- Oh, I'm emotional now. I need a minute.

Yeah. Oh, it was, it went so well. It went so well. We, we joked even with the gynecologist, and it was, like, so different. Like, so, um, so peaceful. And, um-

really nice, especially after all of that-

Oh, yeah.

No, it's- that you had to go through to have that.

Ah.

What was the postpartum like? Was your husband okay now, or still recover? I mean, obviously, this is an ongoing thing if your stomach is that small. But-

Yeah

how was the postpartum for all of you recovering from all of your?

actually, it's, compared to the first one, it's so much easier. Because now I can really understand that my first one was so intense. The little one, um, she's, she's almost never crying as a baby. And not even cranky or, you know, this kind of whining. She's extremely... We call her a bébé soleil, you know, like a sunny baby. She's always smiling. She's so calm. That was one of my fear that I was like, "Okay, I was so stressed during this pregnancy. I'm gonna have a baby that is completely stressed out, that w- you cannot put down, that is always, like, needy," and, and she's the total opposite. Yeah, she's, she's always smiling, super independent. She's so independent. This is crazy how independent she is compared to, to my first one. She always, uh... Yeah, she's... Now she's walking. She's, she, she even wants to eat with her fork herself. Like, I'm like, "Okay, you're 13 months old. You're eating with your fork. Fine." So she's sleeping. She's like, "Ah, hallelujah." I'm like... So yeah, yeah. So sometimes she's waking up, like- A- and this makes such a big difference. You know-

I mean, they're perfect. These little ones are perfect, but some of them are- Yeah incredibly spirited from right when they come out, and it just, it makes a difference on the family. It impacts the family. Mm-hmm. It impacts the postpartum experience. And for you to have had both, it's so, like, humbling and super validating, I imagine, because you know, "Hey, I didn't do anything wrong that time." No, no. "Yes, I, I, you know, I was in a, I was in a slump. Things were really hard for me internally," but it, you didn't do anything wrong. Yeah? You were just living life- No and experiencing this experience, and to have this little soleil, oh, the, the sunshine baby come is just- Yeah so wonderful. Yeah. And feeding, How has feeding been with her? Feeding went super well, I think my body was like, "Ah, you know what you have to do." As the first one, I got, uh, when I got this, uh, milk coming out, I was, straight away I was blocked. I was like, "Ha-ha, I know what to do." So I could deblocked all the ducts were in there, uh, myself, I did have a few days that were difficult, but seriously I knew how to solve it. And I... Yeah, and both my kids decide themself to self- wean, you say? Uh- They decided, both of them, when they wanted to stop. I never had to do anything. So, um, the first one stopped at 20... 21 or 22 months Like, the, the fun story is that she opened a drawer and she saw a pacifier that we had bought for her when she was born, and she just took it. And that day she self we- I was like, It's two years we tried to give you this pacifier and it's just now that you're taking it. Okay."

It had to be her idea.

Voilà. Exactly. She's, she's like that. She's a Scorpio, so... And, uh- Wow voilà. And the second one just stopped by herself. Like, basically she has so much teeth. She has, like, uh, 11 or 12 teeth already. So, uh, she was just biting herself. So she was like, "No. No, no." I mean, I, I tried, but she, she decided that, "No, I'm fine. I want real food." She, she doesn't want, like, baby food anymore as well. She, uh, she completely refusing it,

this is an incredible story. Um, how, how is your husband t- today? How is-

My husband is, is fine., It's still challenging. Food is still challenging. He has l- lost a lot of weight, That, that's the funny the funny part is that we're joking because now we're, we're almost to our 40 and all our friends gain weight, and we are the only couple who is actually thinner. Like, both of us are thinner than in our 20s. What a wild journey this life- Yeah can be. Yeah. Just an, a absolutely wild journey. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah, and I just wanted to, to say to all the, um- older women who are thin or, I always had a very small belly, for example, when I was pregnant, and, and anyone, like, I had a lot of people telling me, "Oh, you're not even pregnant." And I was like, this is so not okay. But even after, when I gave birth, after one month I didn't add any kilos. I lost everything in, in three weeks or something like that. So, people were like, "Oh, but why do you complain? You're so thin. You should be happy. You should be thankful that you're thin." And I was like, "No, but actually I feel too thin. Uh, so it's not okay." And, but if you're thin, you're, you don't have the right to complain, basically. So- You don't get much sympathy for that a lot of older, yeah, a lot of, other women were just like, "Yeah, shut up," basically. Uh, you should just be thankful. It was difficult for me because I really thought I would gain weight, and so to be actually thinner than before, it was never, I never imagined me being thinner than even when I was a y- yeah, adolescent. Isn't it, isn't it interesting how, like, a pregnant body, it just becomes public property, you know? Yeah. And it's so completely unacceptable, and we would never accept that level of body shaming, in any other time of someone's life. And I think what you're being confronted with and what is this, like, societal expectations, um, that women feel and are all exposed to, and you're, a lot of those expectations and fears and disconnection that people have with their own body is now being projected onto you. And yeah, suddenly you're not allowed to complain, and that's... Or you're not allowed to have challenges. Yeah. I mean, to base someone's bo- like, that's really unacceptable, actually. Like, just by the way someone looks, you can, you then create this whole narrative about their life and it's, and it's, uh, that's so, uh, yeah, that's horrible. And, and now I can really, I can really compare because my husband, with his, uh, his operation, he lost 18 kilos, which is huge, and no one made a comment about his shape. There you go. Wow. And he lost way much weight than me, yeah? So either you gain weight, people comment, and if you lose weight people comment. And, and even if I was not happy with my weight, people would comment. Like, I was just like, "I just want support, you know, guys?" Like, uh, "No, you're not allowed because you're skinny, so that's, um, that's your chance." And I'm like, "Okay, that's my chance," but when I have a gastro then I'm a skeleton, so it's No, it's not okay. But, no, um, but I'm so happy now, uh, with this, that, of this journey. And it, it also, the fact that I gave birth to this, um, this clinic in Clinic des Grangettes, it kind of closed a, a loop because I was also born there, and my mom had a very traumatic, experience of giving birth to me. So it was also a way to, to say, yeah, everything can go well in Les Grangettes, I'm very grateful for, for all this experience, and I think it's, it made me grow even though it's hard. But, um, we're better humans, seriously. We're so much better humans than before. I mean, the growth that you take in, have taken in the last six, seven years of your life is just, it's, it's unmatched. You cannot match that. Absolutely. It's just unbelievable. Um, so then to wrap up we'll ask our final question, and it is, in this whole experience, what has been your most brilliant moment? I'm not sure it's brilliant, but that was something I was amazed by is How crazy And how resourceful is the body when you can be sleep-deprived for two years, and you're still functioning even though you had roughly four to five hours of sleep per day for two years, and that you can still be kind of a normal human being. Okay, you forgot about a lot of things, but you can still do so much. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh, if I would not have been sleep deprived, how crazy..." I mean, this is how you can imagine, uh, brilliant people, um, when they have this full potential, how powerful it can be. Because you see with so low energy how you can still do, make thing happens, that when your full potential, uh, like, sky is the limit, basically. I've just loved this conversation. We've loved this conversation. Thank you. It's been, it's been truly incredible. Thank you. Thank you. I really hope that, uh, it can help other women to also live happily their pregnancy. Oh, I'm sure it will. Yeah, it's important. Thank you. That's awesome. Thank you for having me.